Author Topic: About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps  (Read 1888 times)

RadioFreeSeaLab

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« on: August 17, 2006, 09:09:39 AM »
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/17/domesticspying.lawsuit.ap/index.html
Quote
DETROIT, Michigan (AP) -- A federal judge ruled Thursday that the government's warrantless wiretapping program is unconstitutional and ordered an immediate halt to it.

U.S. District Judge Anna Diggs Taylor in Detroit became the first judge to strike down the National Security Agency's program, which she says violates the rights to free speech and privacy.

The American Civil Liberties Union filed the lawsuit on behalf of journalists, scholars and lawyers who say the program has made it difficult for them to do their jobs. They believe many of their overseas contacts are likely targets of the program, which involves secretly taping conversations between people in the U.S. and people in other countries.

The government argued that the program is well within the president's authority, but said proving that would require revealing state secrets.

The ACLU said the state-secrets argument was irrelevant because the Bush administration already had publicly revealed enough information about the program for Taylor to rule.

The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2006, 10:30:15 AM »
It was probably just such a program that foiled the plot in Britain.
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2006, 10:45:55 AM »
If I recall, the plotters in Britian weren't American citizens, protected by our Constitution from warrantless surveillance.

The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2006, 10:56:12 AM »
So if they had been American citizens so protected, then they would have carried out their plot and thousands would have died.
Or is that what you mean to say?
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2006, 11:00:36 AM »
Yes, that is what I mean to say.
It does no good to fight on war on those who would destroy us, if in the process we destroy our Constitution, the very document which defines who we are as a country.

BozemanMT

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2006, 11:12:59 AM »
Seriously, at least the constituion lives for a little bit longer
thank goodness
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2006, 11:14:19 AM »
Yes, exactly.
I do not believe that a bunch of whacko 72-virgin-folks can destroy our country.  We, on the other hand, are capable of very easily destroying ourselves, as we are in the process of doing.

Off topic:
Regarding your signature, Bozeman, you're right.  I'm having a damned hard time figuring out how to compoundify my little condo.

The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #7 on: August 17, 2006, 11:17:50 AM »
Quote from: dasmi
Yes, that is what I mean to say.
It does no good to fight on war on those who would destroy us, if in the process we destroy our Constitution, the very document which defines who we are as a country.
I'd ask whether you are OK with the idea that thousands would die because possibly, maybe there might be some infringement on the USC, although in fact very good authority exists that there is no infringement at all.  But I know the answer already.
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Perd Hapley

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2006, 11:26:23 AM »
Which rights were violated by the program, and how?
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RadioFreeSeaLab

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2006, 11:30:20 AM »
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I think you can figure it out.

The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2006, 11:38:36 AM »
Quote from: dasmi
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I think you can figure it out.
Actually the claim was that the program violated rights of free speech and privacy, not search and seizure.  At least thats what the article said.
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m1911owner

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2006, 12:16:01 PM »
Quote from: dasmi
It does no good to fight on war on those who would destroy us, if in the process we destroy our Constitution, the very document which defines who we are as a country.
I agree completely.  However, the flip-side is also true: If rigorously following the Constitution results in losing the war, and the Constitution, and our freedom, then we have lost everything.

Civil liberties are in direct conflict with fighting a war against an enemy that has infiltrated our country.  I have no idea where the "correct" balance between these two competing interests lies.

TarpleyG

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2006, 01:18:09 PM »
Quote
but said proving that would require revealing state secrets.
Seems the .gov is running more and more to this "excuse" to undermine us.

Oh, and the link to the implausibility of the mixing of the stuff to blow up the airplane...they could have easily dumped the 3 chemicals in the toilet and flushed.  I imagine a volatile combination like that in the holding tank would at least cause a fire if not explode altogether.  Either outcome would have likely brought an airliner down so I don't buy his version.

Greg

RadioFreeSeaLab

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2006, 01:48:02 PM »
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: dasmi
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I think you can figure it out.
Actually the claim was that the program violated rights of free speech and privacy, not search and seizure.  At least thats what the article said.
The 4th deals with privacy issues, I would say.

The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2006, 04:07:18 PM »
Quote from: dasmi
Quote from: The Rabbi
Quote from: dasmi
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

I think you can figure it out.
Actually the claim was that the program violated rights of free speech and privacy, not search and seizure.  At least thats what the article said.
The 4th deals with privacy issues, I would say.
Actually until Griswold there was no "right of privacy" in the USC.  But  those who hold to "orginal intent" seem to pick and choose on this one.
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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #16 on: August 17, 2006, 04:46:15 PM »
Quote
So if they had been American citizens so protected, then they would have carried out their plot and thousands would have died. Or is that what you mean to say?
How hard is it to get a warrant?  How many times has the FISA court actually turned down the executive branch's request for a warrant?  

Take your time, Rabbi, and show your work.

The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #17 on: August 17, 2006, 04:55:58 PM »
Quote from: FreedomCommando
Quote
So if they had been American citizens so protected, then they would have carried out their plot and thousands would have died. Or is that what you mean to say?
How hard is it to get a warrant?  How many times has the FISA court actually turned down the executive branch's request for a warrant?  

Take your time, Rabbi, and show your work.
The exec branch operated under the opinion that it did not need a warrant.  Why they did that is complicated but it wasn't because someone was too busy.
But go and research the gov't's opinion on this and report back what the program actually consisted of, why they did that, what FISA actually provides for, which presidents used that authority previously with no issues (beginning with Roosevelt) and then you can tell me to show my work.
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Lobotomy Boy

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2006, 05:21:08 PM »
"So if they had been American citizens so protected, then they would have carried out their plot and thousands would have died."

(Forgive the archaic quotations but I haven't figured out how to use the quote feature of this forum yet.)

And how many American citizens have seriously plotted to kill thousands of other Americans this century? And don't even talk to me about a bunch of shoeless half-wits in Florida who wanted Al Qaeda uniforms. The last time that happened was when Timothy McVeigh went whacky. Thank goodness that hasn't happened again.

"The exec branch operated under the opinion that it did not need a warrant."

And today a federal court said they were wrong.
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stevelyn

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2006, 03:19:13 AM »
Perhaps there is a little integrity left in the American judiciary instead of another black-robed jackass rubber-stamping the .gov agenda.

ABC radio news reported that Alberto Gonzales:barf: was whining about appealing the ruling.
Who'da thunk it?rolleyes
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The Rabbi

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About damn time - NSA ordered to stop warrantless wiretaps
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2006, 05:13:54 AM »
Quote from: stevelyn
Perhaps there is a little integrity left in the American judiciary instead of another black-robed jackass rubber-stamping the .gov agenda.

ABC radio news reported that Alberto Gonzales:barf: was whining about appealing the ruling.
Who'da thunk it?rolleyes
Or perhaps the Carter-appointed judge decided she wanted to be ""Civil Libertarian of the Year" by giving the administration a black eye.

Here is the WSJ on it this AM:
Quote
President Taylor
A federal judge rewrites the Constitution on war powers.

Friday, August 18, 2006 12:01 a.m. EDT

In our current era of polarized politics, it was probably inevitable that some judge somewhere would strike down the National Security Agency's warrantless wiretaps as unconstitutional. The temptations to be hailed as Civil Libertarian of the Year are just too great.

So we suppose a kind of congratulations are due to federal Judge Anna Diggs Taylor, who won her 10 minutes of fame yesterday for declaring that President Bush had taken upon himself "the inherent power to violate not only the laws of the Congress but the First and Fourth Amendments of the Constitution, itself." Oh, and by the way, the Jimmy Carter appointee also avers that "there are no hereditary Kings in America." In case you hadn't heard.

The 44-page decision, which concludes by issuing a permanent injunction against the wiretapping program, will doubtless occasion much rejoicing among the "imperial Presidency" crowd. That may have been part of her point, as, early in the decision, Judge Taylor refers with apparent derision to "the war on terror of this Administration."

We can at least be grateful that President Taylor's judgment won't be the last on the matter. The Justice Department immediately announced it will appeal and the injunction has been stayed for the moment. But her decision is all the more noteworthy for coming on the heels of the surveillance-driven roll up of the terrorist plot in Britain to blow up U.S.-bound airliners. In this environment, monitoring the communications of our enemies is neither a luxury nor some sinister plot to chill domestic dissent. It is a matter of life and death.

So let's set aside the judge's Star Chamber rhetoric and try to examine her argument, such as it is. Take the Fourth Amendment first. The "unreasonable search and seizure" and warrant requirements of that amendment have their roots in the 18th-century abuses of the British crown. Those abuses involved the search and arrest of the King's political opponents under general and often secret warrants.

Judge Taylor sees an analogy here, but she manages to forget or overlook that no one is being denied his liberty and no evidence is being brought in criminal proceedings based on what the NSA might learn through listening to al Qaeda communications. The wiretapping program is an intelligence operation, not a law-enforcement proceeding. Congress was duly informed, and not a single specific domestic abuse of such a wiretap has yet been even alleged, much less found.

As for the First Amendment, Judge Taylor asserts that the plaintiffs--a group that includes the ACLU and assorted academics, lawyers and journalists who believe their conversations may have been tapped but almost surely weren't--had their free-speech rights violated because al Qaeda types are now afraid to speak to them on the phone.

But the wiretapping program is not preventing anyone from speaking on the phone. Quite the opposite--if the terrorists stopped talking on the phone, there would be nothing to wiretap. Perhaps the plaintiffs should have sued the New York Times, as it was that paper's disclosure of the program that created the "chill" on "free speech" that Judge Taylor laments.

The real nub of this dispute is the Constitution's idea of "inherent powers," although those two pages of her decision are mostly devoted to pouring scorn on the very concept. But jurists of far greater distinction than Judge Taylor have recognized that the Constitution vests the bulk of war-making power with the President. It did so, as the Founders explained in the Federalist Papers, for reasons of energy, dispatch, secrecy and accountability.

Before yesterday, no American court had ever ruled that the President lacked the Constitutional right to conduct such wiretaps. President Carter signed the 1978 FISA statute that established the special court to approve domestic wiretaps even as his Administration declared it was not ceding any Constitutional power. And in the 2002 decision In Re: Sealed Case, the very panel of appellate judges that hears FISA appeals noted that in a previous FISA case (U.S. v. Truong), a federal "court, as did all the other courts to have decided the issue, held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information." We couldn't find Judge Taylor's attempt to grapple with those precedents, perhaps because they'd have interfered with the lilt of her purple prose.

Unlike Judge Taylor, Presidents are accountable to the voters for their war-making decisions, as the current White House occupant has discovered. Judge Taylor can write her opinion and pose for the cameras--and no one can hold her accountable for any Americans who might die as a result.
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