Question on the history of gunpowder

[Perd Hapley]

In this book, the author observes that gunpowder was "apparently" an independent development of Europeans, and not borrowed from China. Since I've never heard this point of view before, I have tried googling for more information on this claim. Nothing much pops up. I have the book Gunpowder: Long Subtitle, by Jack Kelly. On page 20, he says that a "leading twentieth-century English expert on artillery" argued for the Eurogenic thesis, but he doesn't name him.

Anybody know whence this idea came, and what the evidence was supposed to have been?

[Gowen]

I have always heard that Marco Polo brought it back from china.

just found this  http://asianhistory.about.com/od/asianinventions/a/InventGunpowder.htm

[zxcvbob]

I thought Roger Bacon got the idea from the Chinese.

[HankB]

There are Chinese description of the "Fire Lance" - a bamboo tube used to fire a spear or dart via gunpowder - dating back to the 10th century.

Unless there is earlier documentation of European use, I think the credit rests with the Chinese.

[Perd Hapley]

I read somewhere that they have actually found a sketch of a Chinese cannon from before the Europeans were known to have them. I've also read of other evidence that the Chinese had weaponized gunpowder to a much greater degree than is commonly believed, before the Europeans got into the game.

[K Frame]

The most likely source of gunpowder may have been via the Mongols, who were in contact with both the Chinese and Europeans.

Bacon described in his writings what may well have been firecrackers, and did so approximately 30 years before Marco Polo supposedly returned from his journey to China. In fact, Polo's return largely coincided with Bacon's death, so it's very doubtful that Bacon ever even heard of Polo.


Ah. Just read this in the link below...

" In 1267, a European writer made reference to gunpowder..."

That would have been Bacon, in either his Opus Maius or Opus Tertium.

[TommyGunn]

The most likely source of gunpowder may have been via the Mongols, who were in contact with both the Chinese and Europeans.

Bacon described in his writings what may well have been firecrackers, and did so approximately 30 years before Marco Polo supposedly returned from his journey to China. In fact, Polo's return largely coincided with Bacon's death, so it's very doubtful that Bacon ever even heard of Polo.


Ah. Just read this in the link below...

" In 1267, a European writer made reference to gunpowder..."

That would have been Bacon, in either his Opus Maius or Opus Tertium.

BACON!  ... Oh wait; wrong Bacon .    Sorry.      Must be tired......

[K Frame]

Well, given the saltpeter is used to make bacon and Francis Bacon was talking about gunpowder, which contains saltpeter, we'll allow it.

[freakazoid]

Bacon

[Jim147]

i thought Kirk invented blackpowder.

jim

[zxcvbob]

i thought Kirk invented blackpowder.

jim

[230RN]

Perhaps.  But I thought the European writer referred to was Roger Pastrami.

It's always been a source of admiration to me how "processes," like the refining of saltpeter, were developed "out of nowhere."  This, unlike the discover of unitary technical advancements like the wheel, or striking two things together to make a spark, and then to light fires this way.

I mean, not only did one have to refine saltpeter, even to a crude degree, but piddle and fiddle around with various things to see what would happen... all until the right mixture of sulfur and charcoal was attained.  It's like someone had to throw bat crap on a fire and observe the vigorous blaze, and then say, "Hmmm... I wonder what would happen if I mixed it with that yellow rock I found."

I guess, over time, even without the "Scientific Method" guiding one's steps, anything is possible.

Admirable, for those times, wot?

Incidentally, fistful, you will find that is a wonderful book.  I found it fascinating how Lavoisier had developed the powder industry in France, and that he was pretty close friends with the first Du Pont.  Kelly explores this extensively in terms of the relation to our War of Independence.

Terry, 230RN

REF:
ISBN-10: 0465037224
ISBN-13: 978-0465037223

[TommyGunn]

i thought Kirk invented blackpowder.

jim

Naw, he just stuffed its basic ingredients into a spacebamboo cannon and ignited it.  Because it was a TV show, it worked; if he'd tried that in reality the Gorn would have eaten him for breakfast.   
   

Humans.  the other other white meat. 

[zahc]

Admirable, for those times, wot?

Alchemists accomplished a great deal. Despite the fact that they had no idea what they were doing, they nevertheless managed to accomplish occasional useful things, which caused them not to double their efforts into understanding what they were doing, but to redouble their efforts at alchemy as they knew it.

This process is currently happening with computer programming.

[Perd Hapley]

Incidentally, fistful, you will find that is a wonderful book.  I found it fascinating how Lavoisier had developed the powder industry in France, and that he was pretty close friends with the first Du Pont.  Kelly explores this extensively in terms of the relation to our War of Independence.

I think I read that one last year. I did enjoy it, thanks.