Author Topic: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup  (Read 2640 times)

MillCreek

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Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« on: May 24, 2014, 10:58:08 AM »
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2014/05/23/315279895/organic-kitty-litter-chief-suspect-in-nuclear-waste-accident?ft=1&f=1007

Organic materials do not react well with low-level nuclear waste, it seems.  So please, if you are cleaning up a nuclear spill, use only the finest clumping clay kitty litter.
_____________
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


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Fly320s

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2014, 03:09:08 PM »
Organic kitty litter? Why is that even a product?
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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2014, 03:47:34 PM »
Organic kitty litter? Why is that even a product?

Because people are stupid.

and in this case, really, REALLY stupid. Even I, who passed HS chemistry only due to the fact that the teacher felt bad for me, know that just switching a material that's supposed to stabilize another reactive material is a bad idea.
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230RN

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2014, 05:46:00 PM »
I wonder if it was combustion (perhaps spontaneous) of the "organic materials," or a fermentation process in the "organic materials" which caused the containers to burst.

Either of which would have been helped along by the additional heat caused by the radioactive decay.

I also wonder what kind of bacterial or yeast mutations resulted from the radiation.

Germzilla?

Super wine-making yeast able to directly ferment grapes to 100 proof?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Especially about the latter. >:D

Terry, 230RN
« Last Edit: May 24, 2014, 05:52:20 PM by 230RN »
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Boomhauer

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2014, 05:47:03 PM »
So there is organic kitty liter, but what about free range, no GMO, and antibiotic free?

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seeker_two

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Re:
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2014, 06:16:49 PM »
I thought organic kitty litter was what came out of the cat's butt....

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birdman

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 08:41:23 AM »
I wonder if it was combustion (perhaps spontaneous) of the "organic materials," or a fermentation process in the "organic materials" which caused the containers to burst.

Either of which would have been helped along by the additional heat caused by the radioactive decay.

I also wonder what kind of bacterial or yeast mutations resulted from the radiation.

Germzilla?

Super wine-making yeast able to directly ferment grapes to 100 proof?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Especially about the latter. >:D

Terry, 230RN

Neither.  
A lot of nuclear material processing involves acids, specifically nitric and sulfuric acids, which react with organic materials to release gas (CO2 and water vapor, as acids are oxidizers).
"Organic" kitty litter is typical absorptive organic refuse (think corn cob based particles like used in a tumbler)
Thus bad.

Regular "kitty litter" like they should use in this case is mainly benotite clay particles...non-reactive with acids being already oxidized.  They also absorb massive amounts of water (dewatering acids completely makes them virtually non-reactive), they easily for colloidal suspensions (gets in all the nooks and crannies) and swell on absorption (sealing any leaks and creating impermeable films over materials).  Basically, exactly what you want to fix and hold liquid bad stuff.
And nature provides it to us by the megaton!

A better question is WTF make "organic" kitty litter any more "organic" than kitty litter you dig up out of the ground?  Or ironically, is the name because it has organic compounds?  That would be hilarious.

But to your point about bacteria or yeast, well, there are actually some bacteria that can live INSIDE an operating nuclear reactor, but it wouldn't worry about mutation.
At those levels of radiation, successful mutation (small DNA errors that don't completely impede the functioning of the cell, because if it impedes reproduction, it doesn't go anywhere) is really tough, as they get clobbered so much that they either make it through a reproductive cycle with no errors that matter, or the cell ceases to function.

Also, given DNA's fragility, the bacteria that love at extremely high temperatures (eg ones in geothermal vents) are ironically more bad-ass.  The thermal issues are actually harder to deal with biologically than the nuclear induced damage.  Since a nuclear particle impact can alter single (or at most a few) bonds in a molecule, and DNA is somewhat error checking (due to 3 letters per codon and two strands), if one side of one rung of a DNA molecule is blasted, it typically (IIRC) results in one side being a non-coding/non-useful strand and the other being fine.  Since the two strands are data-mirrors of each other, and only one side codes to mRNA, there seems to be some robustness there, as likely only one side would be hit, but both sides can be used for replication of the DNA in cell division.

I don't remember if ribosomes can "error check" (I.e. Does the step to the next codon require a compatible amino/tRNA there before hand?  Or are there codons that are the equivalent of a NOP), but it seems likely.
Thus some damage can occur without resulting in an inability to mfg that protein, or in the case of a mutated protein, a non-functioning or alternate functioning one.

Dammit, now I'm stuck in a wiki-walk about DNA damage and protein manufacture.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 09:02:57 AM by birdman »

Tallpine

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2014, 11:40:46 AM »
So there is organic kitty liter, but what about free range, no GMO, and antibiotic free?



You forgot gluten free  :P

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2014, 11:47:30 AM »
You forgot gluten free  :P

 ;/

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BlueStarLizzard

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2014, 11:53:28 AM »
Neither.  
A lot of nuclear material processing involves acids, specifically nitric and sulfuric acids, which react with organic materials to release gas (CO2 and water vapor, as acids are oxidizers).
"Organic" kitty litter is typical absorptive organic refuse (think corn cob based particles like used in a tumbler)
Thus bad.

Regular "kitty litter" like they should use in this case is mainly benotite clay particles...non-reactive with acids being already oxidized.  They also absorb massive amounts of water (dewatering acids completely makes them virtually non-reactive), they easily for colloidal suspensions (gets in all the nooks and crannies) and swell on absorption (sealing any leaks and creating impermeable films over materials).  Basically, exactly what you want to fix and hold liquid bad stuff.
And nature provides it to us by the megaton!

A better question is WTF make "organic" kitty litter any more "organic" than kitty litter you dig up out of the ground?  Or ironically, is the name because it has organic compounds?  That would be hilarious.

But to your point about bacteria or yeast, well, there are actually some bacteria that can live INSIDE an operating nuclear reactor, but it wouldn't worry about mutation.
At those levels of radiation, successful mutation (small DNA errors that don't completely impede the functioning of the cell, because if it impedes reproduction, it doesn't go anywhere) is really tough, as they get clobbered so much that they either make it through a reproductive cycle with no errors that matter, or the cell ceases to function.

Also, given DNA's fragility, the bacteria that love at extremely high temperatures (eg ones in geothermal vents) are ironically more bad-ass.  The thermal issues are actually harder to deal with biologically than the nuclear induced damage.  Since a nuclear particle impact can alter single (or at most a few) bonds in a molecule, and DNA is somewhat error checking (due to 3 letters per codon and two strands), if one side of one rung of a DNA molecule is blasted, it typically (IIRC) results in one side being a non-coding/non-useful strand and the other being fine.  Since the two strands are data-mirrors of each other, and only one side codes to mRNA, there seems to be some robustness there, as likely only one side would be hit, but both sides can be used for replication of the DNA in cell division.

I don't remember if ribosomes can "error check" (I.e. Does the step to the next codon require a compatible amino/tRNA there before hand?  Or are there codons that are the equivalent of a NOP), but it seems likely.
Thus some damage can occur without resulting in an inability to mfg that protein, or in the case of a mutated protein, a non-functioning or alternate functioning one.

Dammit, now I'm stuck in a wiki-walk about DNA damage and protein manufacture.

Won't the heat loving bacteria have evolved resistance to radiation damage because of the heat thing and natural radiation levels?
(ok, it's way to early, and this is a little over my head, but your implication is that the resistance to damage is a fluke, rather then evolved. But a lot of naturally occuring heat sources involve higher levels of radiation, right? So the bacteria would be already talior made for our man made radioactive heat sources?)
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birdman

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2014, 02:57:44 PM »
Won't the heat loving bacteria have evolved resistance to radiation damage because of the heat thing and natural radiation levels?
(ok, it's way to early, and this is a little over my head, but your implication is that the resistance to damage is a fluke, rather then evolved. But a lot of naturally occuring heat sources involve higher levels of radiation, right? So the bacteria would be already talior made for our man made radioactive heat sources?)

Kinda.  The damage is similar, even though the natural sources don't have any radiation.  Also, reactors are hot.  So the thermal tolerant bacteria can survive.

Note, they don't survive in the core itself, but rather in other parts.  He radiation in the core kills anything (the temperatures do as well).

seeker_two

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Re: Re: Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 06:38:16 PM »
You forgot gluten free  :P

 ;/

Yes...because gluten does not occur naturally in nature...

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 07:56:08 PM »
Kinda.  The damage is similar, even though the natural sources don't have any radiation.  Also, reactors are hot.  So the thermal tolerant bacteria can survive.

I remember reading that they actually do have large amounts of extra error-checking and corrective mechanisms. 

birdman

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2014, 09:20:00 PM »
I remember reading that they actually do have large amounts of extra error-checking and corrective mechanisms. 

Error checking is tough (which strand is wrong?) but can be achieved through redundant sections that code for the same protein. (And also proteins to snip broken parts)  Also, since errors can cause antisense RNA that jams cellular mechanisms, im sure there are things that can prevent that. 
That's just my guess as to processes....I don't want to restart that wiki walk, too much to do!

brimic

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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2014, 12:48:15 AM »
Kinda.  The damage is similar, even though the natural sources don't have any radiation.  Also, reactors are hot.  So the thermal tolerant bacteria can survive.

Note, they don't survive in the core itself, but rather in other parts.  He radiation in the core kills anything (the temperatures do as well).

All I remember about ghernal vent bacteria is taq polymerase- an enzyme (protein) which is very useful due to its heat resistance... I'm sure that these bacteria are chock full of similar adaptatiobs.
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Re: Do not use organic kitty litter for nuclear waste cleanup
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2014, 03:25:56 PM »
Me:

Quote
I also wonder what kind of bacterial or yeast mutations resulted from the radiation.

Germzilla?

Super wine-making yeast able to directly ferment grapes to 100 proof?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Especially about the latter.

birdman:

Quote
Neither.

Me:
Rats.  I was hoping for a direct conversion by yeasts to brandy.  Phooey.

birdman:

Quote
A lot of nuclear material processing involves acids, specifically nitric and sulfuric acids, which react with organic materials to release gas (CO2 and water vapor, as acids are oxidizers).

Hmmm.... and organic nitrates.  Ummm... aren't they kinda 'splodey?  

I wonder who (meaning an individual with a name) suggested changing what was known to work for something more better and greener and the latest and greatest thing and at the leading edge of technology and full of buzzwordy and politically correct language.

"Hey, J.B., I got an idea !  We should use organic kitty litter and save the Earth !"

And who (meaning an individual with a name) approved it.

Terry
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 03:35:04 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.