Author Topic: Another reason to quit potato chips  (Read 816 times)

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,413
Another reason to quit potato chips
« on: August 04, 2014, 10:01:00 PM »
I know I need to quit eating potato chips, both because of the calories and the sodium content. Now it seems I need to eschew chewing chips if I hope to keep the NSA at bay: http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2014/08/04/mit-researchers-can-listen-to-your-conversation-by-watching-your-potato-chip-bag/

Who'd a thunk that we might be betrayed by a bag of Frito Lays?
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,049
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Another reason to quit potato chips
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2014, 10:05:44 PM »
It sounds similar in principle to the Cold War espionage technique of using a laser microphone to bounce a laser off a window to find out what is being said inside of a room.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

onions!

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,188
  • Space for rent.
Re: Another reason to quit potato chips
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2014, 10:07:58 PM »
Just annoyingly,randomly rustle the bag while you graze.That should muddy the signal enough for now.
Or just put them in a bowl.

Potatoes are your friend.
jeff w

I like onions!

230RN

  • I saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,014
  • ...shall not be infringed.
Re: Another reason to quit potato chips
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2014, 12:30:49 AM »
Or tune your radio (or whatever) to an unused frequency and let  the white noise rule.

Or turn on a room fan to rustle flexible stuff around.

Actually, what's scary is the processing they came up with.  Given that, you wouldn't need a laser bounced off a windowpane. Just focus on a reflection of a stationary outside object.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2014, 12:36:12 AM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

birdman

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,831
Re: Another reason to quit potato chips
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2014, 08:29:40 AM »
Or tune your radio (or whatever) to an unused frequency and let  the white noise rule.

Or turn on a room fan to rustle flexible stuff around.

Actually, what's scary is the processing they came up with.  Given that, you wouldn't need a laser bounced off a windowpane. Just focus on a reflection of a stationary outside object.

Processing isn't all that complex
For high speed camera (frame rate >> sound frequency) its simply region summation, difference from temporal mean, than FFT over a bunch of frames, with a sliding window, then weighted frequency filter, then IFFT.
For low speed, its region selection (the area with the bag), summation of each row, difference of each row to region average over a bunch of frames, then FFT, then weighted frequency filter, then IFFT.

Its a few lines of matlab.  The hard part is the target.  The reason why a bag works is its a neat combination of high reflectivity/complex shape (ie signal changes substantially with even small motion) and really thin (even very low pressure sound makes it move at usable frequencies). 

For thicker stuff (window, etc) you need either an interferometric measurement or the surface is both planar enough and specular enough to cause a small but measurable (as the receive spot moves) angle change even at very low deformations.  Close range laser mics use the latter, long range use the former.

Interesting thought experiment.  With a laser dot that is 1mm diameter, at 10m, a 1% difference in detected signal corresponds to a slope of 1:500,000 roughly, meaning even if the window was a yard across, if the center moved less than a micron (<1:50th of the width of a hair) at the middle relative to the edge, it would be detectable.

For long range, its harder because the air motion and beam spread makes the angle/intensity correlation almost impossible.  But there, since the air effects are larger (10's of microns of path change over 100's of meters) and the frequencies lower than most sound (100's of Hz, and white-noise dominated), a "fringe velocity" type measurement with good post processing can make interferometric methods viable (but requires a really good laser source, ideally multiple spots to eliminate speckle, and a few other things)...and they do work, but AFAIK you can't do it off something with limited deformation (thick metal wall), or with internal damping (brick, drywall, etc) or with limited reflection.  So glass tends to work the best (reflective, thin enough to have deformation, stiff, limited damping).

It doesn't take much sound...60dB is 0.02 Pa, more than enough to get microns of displacement in a decent window even at audible frequencies

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Another reason to quit potato chips
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2014, 09:22:29 AM »
Well, if they can gt a (semi)clear shot of my chip bag as it's clutched in my hands, more power to them.

And maybe this will teach you to clean up after yourself - throw those empty bags out instead of leaving the scattered all over the place.  Make those NSA SOBs try that trick with empty pizza boxes instead.

What I want to know is what the range of this technology is.  The Russkis (actually WaPo iirc) were doing it from several miles away.  A whole lot different than MIT geeks seting up in your living room with all their gear.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.