Unresponsive Plane Crashes into Atlantic

[Ben]

Condolences to the family of those on board.  Sketchy details at this time, I'm interested to hear what exactly happened. It isn't clear if they initially lost contact at a lower altitude, or if something happened to cabin pressure at the higher altitude. Three people total on board. If the pilot went down initially, it must have been hell for the passengers. Kinda hoping for their sake that they were in fact hit with hypoxia so they wouldn't have to endure the slow crash.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/09/05/2-f-15s-respond-to-unresponsive-small-plane-over-atlantic/

[BobR]

If I were a betting person I would bet on hypoxia. The little plane has a service ceiling of 31K so I would bet a slow leak and they didn't realize it. I don't know if civil aviation pilots get any aviation physiology or not. Even in the 15 years I was flying in the Navy we only did the altitude chamber every 4 years. Patty cake, patty cake while missing each other's hands and giggling about it the whole time.

bob

[Ben]

If I were a betting person I would bet on hypoxia. The little plane has a service ceiling of 31K so I would bet a slow leak and they didn't realize it. I don't know if civil aviation pilots get any aviation physiology or not. Even in the 15 years I was flying in the Navy we only did the altitude chamber every 4 years. Patty cake, patty cake while missing each other's hands and giggling about it the whole time.

bob

Yeah, I did the training with the Class 2, but it was for .gov aircraft (required even for non-pilots, who had to pass the Class 2 physical). Don't know if a civil av pilot has to do it to rate on a small airframe with a pressurized cabin. Even if they did, I'm not sure they would notice hypoxia coming on. I played the same patty cake as you and we used to think we were just fine until we saw the video afterwards.

[Jamisjockey]

Yep. There were other reports of the pilot communicating with ATC and reporting some sort of problem, then going NORDO.  Payne Stewart, anyone?

[Fly320s]

Probably hypoxia induced loss of consciousness.  Yes, civilian pilots get trained on the warning signs, but no altitude chamber is required.

I don't know anything about the TBM700, but I would bet it has a cabin altitude warning system.

[Ron]

Oddly a friend of mine just went through some FAA training on hypoxia. here is what he posted on fb. I didn't ask permission to repost but knowing him like I do I'm sure he would be fine with helping other pilots be vigilant against potential danger.

This morning the #FAA did an awesome job holding a hypoxia training session at redacted. Our chamber was at 25,000' and I had a specific task to complete...count backwards by three from 100 and get as far as I could. I got to 91...

Then after we exited the chamber we had a debrief and we were asked if any one had a specific task to accomplish. Even though two of us had tasks no one including my self thought we had. Until it was pointed out that I had an extra number on my paper that I wrote.

A 91 in the middle of my page and I couldn't remember what it was for. Hypoxia Amnesia.

It was a great time to learn the effects first hand instead of out of a text book and try to guess when you're feeling hypoxic.

Thanks #FAA for this great training! 

[230RN]

Technical question from an aeronautical dunce (me):

How likely is it for the cabin pressurization system to be drawing in carbon monoxide from the engine(s)?

Hypoxia seems to be a ready (and more likely) reason for pilots to "zero out," but I wonder about that.

Terry, 230RN

[Fly320s]

Technical question from an aeronautical dunce (me):

How likely is it for the cabin pressurization system to be drawing in carbon monoxide from the engine(s)?

Hypoxia seems to be a ready (and more likely) reason for pilots to "zero out," but I wonder about that.

Terry, 230RN

That happens pretty easily in piston-engine airplanes.  Those use the exhaust manifold to heat the incoming air.  Turbine aircraft use the air off of the compressor (before combustion) to run the A/C and pressurization. There shouldn't be any exhaust going into that area during flight.

[RocketMan]

The latest info I read was the pilot had requested a lower flight level, he wanted to drop to 18k from 31k, due to a problem indication.  He didn't say what the problem was.  ATC gave him 25k.  He requested a lower level again.  ATC said, "We're working on that."  Finally he was granted 20k.
One of the ANG fighter escorts claimed they could see the pilot's "chest rising and falling right before I left."
If there was a cabin pressure problem, why didn't he just inform ATC he was headed to a safe lower altitude due to a life safety issue?  Would he have to ask permission for that?
Lots we don't know.  Probably never will.

[wmenorr67]

The latest info I read was the pilot had requested a lower flight level, he wanted to drop to 18k from 31k, due to a problem indication.  He didn't say what the problem was.  ATC gave him 25k.  He requested a lower level again.  ATC said, "We're working on that."  Finally he was granted 20k.
One of the ANG fighter escorts claimed they could see the pilot's "chest rising and falling right before I left."
If there was a cabin pressure problem, why didn't he just inform ATC he was headed to a safe lower altitude due to a life safety issue?  Would he have to ask permission for that?
Lots we don't know.  Probably never will.

Question I would have is if he knew there was a problem why not request an immediate emergency landing at the nearest airport?

[Jamisjockey]

The latest info I read was the pilot had requested a lower flight level, he wanted to drop to 18k from 31k, due to a problem indication.  He didn't say what the problem was.  ATC gave him 25k.  He requested a lower level again.  ATC said, "We're working on that."  Finally he was granted 20k.
One of the ANG fighter escorts claimed they could see the pilot's "chest rising and falling right before I left."
If there was a cabin pressure problem, why didn't he just inform ATC he was headed to a safe lower altitude due to a life safety issue?  Would he have to ask permission for that?
Lots we don't know.  Probably never will.

It's all about communication.  If you don't tell us it's urgent, we can't read your mind.

[RocketMan]

It's all about communication.  If you don't tell us it's urgent, we can't read your mind.

I wonder if, during his communications with ATC, he didn't convey enough of a sense of urgency.  Or, perhaps he thought the problem was manageable if he just got to a lower altitude.  It then up and bit him, proving to be not so manageable.

[Ben]

Even dropping to 18K is a bit high if it's the cabin pressure. It would seem prudent to request around 12K if you knew for sure your cabin pressure was, or was possibly, going on the fritz. We may never know exactly what was going on though.

[Firethorn]

We may never know exactly what was going on though.

Sadly true. 

Now, I might be incorrect, but would it be that difficult/expensive to have a safety system that detects a drop in cabin pressure and pops oxygen masks?  Preferably with a recorded voice telling you to put them on, before hypoxia would become dangerous.

From Airline literature I remember the phrase 'drop automatically', so I figure the airlines have at least some automatic indicators to drop.

I'd think something as simple as a little balloon that will expand if the outside pressure drops too much and activates a relay would work.

[Jamisjockey]

I wonder if, during his communications with ATC, he didn't convey enough of a sense of urgency.  Or, perhaps he thought the problem was manageable if he just got to a lower altitude.  It then up and bit him, proving to be not so manageable.

In my experience, often times they don't convey enough of a sense of urgency.
Many pilots seem afraid or embarrassed by the idea of getting a fire truck escort on the ground, too.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

In my experience, often times they don't convey enough of a sense of urgency.
Many pilots seem afraid or embarrassed by the idea of getting a fire truck escort on the ground, too.

Yup particularly true with pilots type personalities.
We added airline pilots to our top pricing tier along with docs and lawyers. Also engineers and lobbyists


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[Fly320s]

Sadly true. 

Now, I might be incorrect, but would it be that difficult/expensive to have a safety system that detects a drop in cabin pressure and pops oxygen masks?  Preferably with a recorded voice telling you to put them on, before hypoxia would become dangerous.

From Airline literature I remember the phrase 'drop automatically', so I figure the airlines have at least some automatic indicators to drop.

I'd think something as simple as a little balloon that will expand if the outside pressure drops too much and activates a relay would work.

That is standard on airlines in the cabin. Pilots have quick donning masks.  There isn't much room in the cockpit ceiling to install auto-deploying masks, but we do get several levels of warnings. The TBM has a similar setup I bet.

[Hawkmoon]

Even dropping to 18K is a bit high if it's the cabin pressure. It would seem prudent to request around 12K if you knew for sure your cabin pressure was, or was possibly, going on the fritz. We may never know exactly what was going on though.

18,000 is a bit high, but survivable. Pike's Peak is 14,115 feet. I've driven to the top and walked around -- I wasn't about to run a marathon at that elevation, but I wasn't uncomfortable. Ranger candidates from the Air Force Academy run (or used to) to the top up the cog railway right-of-way.

I agree that 12,000 feet would be more better.

[Jamisjockey]

Yup particularly true with pilots type personalities.
We added airline pilots to our top pricing tier along with docs and lawyers. Also engineers and lobbyists


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Airline pilots are much more cautions and willing to consider a problem an emergency, follow protocols and get the ARFF involved.  I'm referring to private pilots.