Author Topic: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?  (Read 2275 times)

Balog

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As most of ya'll probably know, J. Edgar Hoover used the surveillance apparatus of the FBI to (frequently illegally) gather incriminating documents regarding the politicians of his day in order to essentially blackmail them. He used these documents, his "secret files", in order to gain power and influence as well as to protect himself from Washington's political games. Theoretically, this practice was stopped and no such files exist today.

However, given the massive surveillance apparatus available today, especially in regards to electronic devices and communications, it would be surpassingly easy to gather blackmail material on politicians/judges/the wealthy and powerful etc. What is the likelihood that someone in the highest levels of the NSA or other alphabet soup agency has incriminating dossiers on those in power in order to insulate themselves or influence policy makers?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2014, 02:34:18 PM »
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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Ron

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2014, 02:34:55 PM »
The surprise to me would be if there wasn't!
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RevDisk

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2014, 03:47:45 PM »
What is the likelihood that someone in the highest levels of the NSA or other alphabet soup agency has incriminating dossiers on those in power in order to insulate themselves or influence policy makers?

Not understanding the question. I thought that part leaked decades ago? I think it was leaked (again decades ago) that the NSA was wiretapping Congress. Allegedly, to ensure that Congresscritters that were given TS or SCI info were not leaking it. It came out that they were also spying on the Church Commission, who was looking into abuses committed by the intelligence community. AFAIK, they never stopped. CIA got publicly busted spying on Congress semi recently.

So, no if you're testifying to Congress and asked if your agency has dossiers in particular.
Yes, if you're talking about the activity necessary to create said dossiers.

"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Balog

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2014, 04:20:35 PM »
Not understanding the question. I thought that part leaked decades ago? I think it was leaked (again decades ago) that the NSA was wiretapping Congress. Allegedly, to ensure that Congresscritters that were given TS or SCI info were not leaking it. It came out that they were also spying on the Church Commission, who was looking into abuses committed by the intelligence community. AFAIK, they never stopped. CIA got publicly busted spying on Congress semi recently.

So, no if you're testifying to Congress and asked if your agency has dossiers in particular.
Yes, if you're talking about the activity necessary to create said dossiers.



So it's public knowledge that the NSA et al has secret dossiers they are using to blackmail and control the powerful?
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HankB

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2014, 06:29:49 PM »
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RevDisk

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2014, 09:45:54 AM »
So it's public knowledge that the NSA et al has secret dossiers they are using to blackmail and control the powerful?

Nothing so crass. Merely that they could whenever they wish. Usually.

Lookup QWest. Their CEO didn't play ball with illegal wiretapping, got convicted of flimsy insider trading charges, and classified evidence couldn't be used for his defense. So, no dossiers unless you refuse to play ball. It isn't as applicable to government employees, as the NSA is a military agency. There is a bit of a hesitancy to usurp civilian control. That said, they do push that control time to time when they feel challenged.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Balog

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2014, 11:27:39 AM »
Nothing so crass. Merely that they could whenever they wish. Usually.

Lookup QWest. Their CEO didn't play ball with illegal wiretapping, got convicted of flimsy insider trading charges, and classified evidence couldn't be used for his defense. So, no dossiers unless you refuse to play ball. It isn't as applicable to government employees, as the NSA is a military agency. There is a bit of a hesitancy to usurp civilian control. That said, they do push that control time to time when they feel challenged.

I realize I didn't phrase it very well, but my essential point was to ask if the various intelligence or LEO orgs are currently blackmailing and controlling those in power. Obviously they have the capability, I'm asking if we think they are currently using it.
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If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

RocketMan

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2014, 11:41:22 AM »
I realize I didn't phrase it very well, but my essential point was to ask if the various intelligence or LEO orgs are currently blackmailing and controlling those in power. Obviously they have the capability, I'm asking if we think they are currently using it.

Roberts very convoluted and illogical decision to rule ObamaCare constitutional after his questions to the attorneys indicated he was likely leaning the other way, has always made me wonder if someone somewhere had some dirt on him.  Maybe something ginned up in a program like you mentioned.
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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2014, 01:44:36 PM »
Of course. Look at how the Supreme Court ruled on Obamacare. Someone reached out and.....
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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2014, 03:40:52 PM »
Dean Koontz's novel Dark Rivers of the heart has this scenario as a sub-plot. 
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RevDisk

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2014, 09:48:40 PM »
I realize I didn't phrase it very well, but my essential point was to ask if the various intelligence or LEO orgs are currently blackmailing and controlling those in power. Obviously they have the capability, I'm asking if we think they are currently using it.

Capability is the blackmail.  I sincerely doubt they do run around blackmailing many folks. They seem to prefer setting an example and letting folks' make assumptions. More efficient, no blowback, etc.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2014, 09:57:19 PM »
Sounds logical. I I use that. I don't have to actually do much to people so long as they know I will if pressed. It keeps em in line


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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just Warren

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2014, 10:48:28 PM »
If true, is there any reason to vote?
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Balog

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2014, 02:48:24 AM »
If true, is there any reason to vote?

I question the utility of voting regardless of if it is true or not.
Quote from: French G.
I was always pleasant, friendly and within arm's reach of a gun.

Quote from: Standing Wolf
If government is the answer, it must have been a really, really, really stupid question.

Waitone

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2014, 09:07:05 PM »
Roberts did a U-turn that is still not explained.  It was either recording and photos or a bag of cash and a glock.  In any case the guy was turned. 

Strom Thurmond was bugged in his office by an unnamed agency associated with Echelon.  What makes anyone think Boehner is not similarly compromised.
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RevDisk

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Re: Do you think there is a modern equivalent of Hoover's secret files?
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2014, 09:09:51 PM »
I would like to point out that Hoover never officially blackmailed anyone.

While there were persistent rumors, such as President Truman's comments that the FBI was trending towards the Gestapo and that Hoover was "dabbling in sex-life scandals and plain blackmail." The official unofficial explanation was that Hoover kept confidential files segregated in order to keep file clerks from gossiping about celebrities or politicians.

Unofficially... "We found out about X. We promise to tell no one." By the letter of the law, it probably wasn't legally blackmail. By common sense and normal person's perspective, it was obvious coercion, if not blackmail. That was Hoover's game. Letting some percentage of politicians directly know he had dirt on them or their family, but not directly threatening them.

The NSA is currently playing a different game. They're generally NOT letting anyone know what dirt they may or may not have. They mostly bribe their way with the telecommunication companies. NSA's Special Source Operations pays out hundreds of millions per year for consumer data. This is only about $300m-$400m. They pay communication companies for legitimate services, which is in the tens of billions per year in leased lines, services and whatnot. Some through DISA (only a couple billion), some through the individual services like NMCI (another single digit billions), some through other intelligence activities (unknown) and some directly(unknown). I have no idea how much official or unofficial pull they have with telecommunication procurement with the rest of the federal government.

They generally do not directly say "If you want those billions of dollars, you better let us have access to your wires and not ask questions."

Most companies look those billions and take the money. They legally cannot be prosecuted or sued, as they have been given immunity from wiretapping laws.

Only a complete moron like Nacchio bucked those easy billions. He thought he could tell the NSA to shove the illegal wiretapping but keep the lucrative natural security contracts. He was sentenced to six years in prison. The circumstances relating to the NSA and billions in federal contracts were classified and ruled inadmissible in court. Kinda hard to win a court case when the prosecutors can keep out a huge chunk of information proving your innocence. Not that I personally think Nacchio was squeaky clean, mind you. Also, I'm not sure if it's illegal for the NSA to notify SEC of a CEO's insider trading. The NSA's activities were illegal at the time. Most of their domestic wiretapping has been legalized, though it remains unconstitutional.

Now, you might be saying "Uh, that's a nice rant ya got there. But what does it have to do with blackmailing politicians?"

Fair enough question.

The NSA has been spying on domestic communication since 1978 under BLARNEY. Prior to BLARNEY, it was SHAMROCK and MINARET (started in 1945).

Originally SHAMROCK and MINARET were designed to spy on communists, communications to communists, potential communists or pro Civil Rights persons. Then it moved towards anyone against the Vietnam War. Since then, it's spread to more widespread mass surveillance.

Current partially or wholly domestic projects are:

DISHFIRE - Mass collection of text messages (cellular)
MUSCULAR - Tapping data transmitted between major corporate data centers (Google, Yahoo, Microsoft, etc)
Turbulence - Collection of programs. Malware, poisoned routers, cable taps, etc
PRISM - Tapping internet traffic
Main Core - List of 8 million American suspected of being potential threats
MYSTIC - Voice interception of entire country. Previous targets Iraq, Afghanistan, Bahamas, etc.
MAINWAY - Metadata warehousing
RAGTIME - Domestic counterterrorism information obtained under FISC (ie probably legal)

APS Users : "So, you have an extensive and long list of domestic surveillance. And?"

Exactly zero of those programs have specific filters to remove politicians from their take. The NSA publicly said so in their response to an inquiry from Senator Bernie Sanders (I-VT). Congress receives no special protections or different treatment.

The NSA does have a history of both intentionally and unintentionally spying on Congress. During the Vietnam era, they spied on anti-war politicians. During the Church Commission, they spied on Frank Church. During the CIA torture inquiry, they spied on politicians involved. Does the NSA spy on Congress? Yes, directly and indirectly.

So, no, as far as anyone knows or can prove, Congress is not being blackmailed, in the legal sense.
As far as anyone knows or can prove, the NSA is not pulling "soft" blackmail or coercion in the style of Hoover.

So, they have the potential means of doing so, but as far as anyone knows, they are not employing it. Per my earlier statement, I believe my "capability is the blackmail" statement is correct. HOWEVER, I wish to clarify that I mean this in the common sense meaning of the word rather than federal law. Coercion is a better term if you want to use legal terms. I believe blanket, unwarranted and unaccountable surveillance of both the Legislative and Judicial branches of the Federal government gives the intelligence community leverage that they should not be given. While it is (probably) legal under existing law, I believe this to be unconstitutional under the Fourth Amendment.



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