Author Topic: Military Retirement  (Read 2279 times)

Ben

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Military Retirement
« on: January 28, 2015, 11:46:12 PM »
Looks like they want to change it. If they do, I hope you guys that are in are grandfathered!

http://www.stripes.com/report-pay-and-benefits-panel-to-recommend-killing-20-year-retirement-1.326293
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RoadKingLarry

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 12:03:11 AM »
My off the cuff guess is that not one single member of that committee ever served a day in uniform.
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Firethorn

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 12:50:40 AM »
They've been trying for a while.  Last time they tried to reduce our retirement benefits under 'Redux', recruitment and retention went to hell.

And yes, those currently serving are grandfathered, so it's not like it'd save any money for 20+ years.

BobR

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2015, 01:20:09 AM »
I think the real objective here is to move retirees off of Tricare and into some other abomination of government healthcare. That alone makes the money saved look very attractive, and really doesn't hurt recruitment and retention because it won't be a concern of active duty at this time.

bob

wmenorr67

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2015, 06:46:07 AM »
The funny thing is that I believe that the Services were supposed to be matching what Service Members have been putting into the TSP(401k) but it was an unfunded mandate.
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RevDisk

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2015, 09:48:08 AM »

I concur that changing the "20 or nothing" model is a good idea. I suspect this is more about the most creative way of screwing over the soldiers. I do love that DOD civilians get matching for the TSP, but not folks in uniformed services. The argument is the "20 or nothing" pension makes up for it, neatly ignoring that most people don't put in their 20.
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RevDisk

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2015, 09:49:55 AM »
The funny thing is that I believe that the Services were supposed to be matching what Service Members have been putting into the TSP(401k) but it was an unfunded mandate.

Nope.

https://www.tsp.gov/planparticipation/eligibility/typesOfContributions.shtml

"Currently, members of the uniformed services do not receive Matching Contributions. However, the law that extended participation in the TSP to members of the uniformed services allows the secretary of each individual service to designate critical specialties as eligible for Matching Contributions under certain circumstances."

There are zero designated critical specialties.
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Ben

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2015, 10:31:44 AM »
I'm guessing uniformed folks don't get matching TSP because they equate you with CSRS civilians, CSRS having been a retirement system similar to what you all have now. FERS (started in the early 80's) civilians have a much crappier retirement system which is why they came up with TSP for us in the first place. Matching is the full first 2%, then 50% of the next 3%.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2015, 10:51:58 AM »
I might draw some heat, but 20 years is too short.
Hear me out.
If you're an admin POG, (or airwing like me), you don't go through the same abuse that the grunts do.  20 years is a sweet quick and easy retirement for the average POG.
Grunts on the other hand, deserve a shorter retirement.  if I was king, anyone in a combat arms MOS would get a 15 year retirement if at least 10 years were in said combat arms MOS and they have earned at least one of the various ribbons signifying they've been in combat (like the CIB for grunts).  Purple heart, or any medal awarded during actual combat would qualify as well for all MOS's.

Maybe I'm crazy I don't know.  Maybe I need more coffee.
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Sergeant Bob

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2015, 12:26:30 PM »
I might draw some heat, but 20 years is too short.
Hear me out.
If you're an admin POG, (or airwing like me), you don't go through the same abuse that the grunts do.  20 years is a sweet quick and easy retirement for the average POG.
Grunts on the other hand, deserve a shorter retirement.  if I was king, anyone in a combat arms MOS would get a 15 year retirement if at least 10 years were in said combat arms MOS and they have earned at least one of the various ribbons signifying they've been in combat (like the CIB for grunts).  Purple heart, or any medal awarded during actual combat would qualify as well for all MOS's.

Maybe I'm crazy I don't know.  Maybe I need more coffee.

Can't say I disagree with you on that. I've now been drawing retirement for longer than I was in the service.
That said, I sure am glad I got mine!
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Ben

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2015, 02:12:04 PM »
I might draw some heat, but 20 years is too short.
Hear me out.
If you're an admin POG, (or airwing like me), you don't go through the same abuse that the grunts do.  20 years is a sweet quick and easy retirement for the average POG.
Grunts on the other hand, deserve a shorter retirement.  if I was king, anyone in a combat arms MOS would get a 15 year retirement if at least 10 years were in said combat arms MOS and they have earned at least one of the various ribbons signifying they've been in combat (like the CIB for grunts).  Purple heart, or any medal awarded during actual combat would qualify as well for all MOS's.

Maybe I'm crazy I don't know.  Maybe I need more coffee.

I don't know that it's all that crazy of an idea. Though I gripe about FERS, there are good points to it as well. While we can't get the same level of retirement payout as CSRS retirees (or .mil retirees), we don't take it in the shorts if we leave prior to 20. I knew an O-4 who quit at 18 because they stuck him with a sea assignment instead of the office billet he figured he deserved. He took it in the shorts. Had he had something similar to FERS, he could have done a minimum retirement age or deferred retirement thing (which is what I did) and while not getting full retirement, would have walked off with something at least decent.

Also, to your point of combat vets, it wouldn't strike me as unfair to give someone who has seen a lot of combat some kind of retirement at 10 or 15 years, versus making them stick it out to 20. I also wonder how many of you that are in now, work with somebody on the countdown timer who's worthless and only hanging out because they need their 20. An "early out" option seems like it would help clear out the dead weight as well (though it certainly doesn't always work on the civilian side).
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Andiron

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2015, 06:34:26 PM »
Benefits be damned,  they offered an early out for anyone within 9 months of done, and I bailed at 3 years, 3 months.  They don't have enough money or benefits to make the stupid games worth playing for 2 decades. 
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French G.

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 05:14:17 AM »
Well, I got my letter 2 months ago, suitable for framing. At age 60 I will get my USNR retirement provided that there is a government to sign the check, a US dollar that does not require a wheelbarrow to move enough to buy groceries, and that I am still above ambient temperature then. All big ifs. I certainly want what is contractually due. Hey, I saved y'all a crapton of money by bailing on my active career at 14 years. :)

Really not looking forward to the spittle-flecked rage of all the military I know on Fb. Yes preserve benefits previously promised. But don't go nuts if new recruits and newer people in service end up on TSP only. The 20 year system cannot go on forever with people drawing pay for 40 years after they retire. Last year's unhinged rage from many veterans over a smaller COLA increase was embarrassing and dishonorable as far as I am concerned. I agreed to no specific COLA when I re-enlisted. Nobody ever promised me no changes would be made to retirement while I was serving. People need to think about why they joined and stop acting like union members.

My standard is this. If a person is on their last enlistment(or say 15+ years) or has already received their eligibility to retire legislation should not be able to alter their deal. 
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I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 08:32:25 AM »
Entitlement feelings are not specific to just one demographic.


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Monkeyleg

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2015, 10:04:00 AM »
I have to qualify what I say by reminding everyone that I didn't serve, but I agree with Jamisjockey's point. The idea of someone who was a desk jockey from 18 years of age, and being able to retire at 38, is pretty ridiculous. I have the same problem with teachers, firefighters, cops, etc. I don't know if it's the same now, but in Milwaukee, cops got 90% of their salary in retirement benefits after 20 years, 100% after 25 years, and 110% after 30.

My nephew did his 30 in the Navy, and retired as a Lt. Commander at age 48. He was at sea most of that time, and served in some hot zones, so I don't begrudge him those benefits. He now works as a consultant to the Navy, and makes a killing.

Scout26

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2015, 12:51:19 PM »
I'll have to slightly disagree.

Certain occupations are a young man's game.  And it may be hard to break down by MOS/career field who would "qualify" for the 20 year retirement as opposed a longer (say 25 or 30 year retirement).   I'll use my career field as an example.

I was an MP in direct support MP company.  We were expected to be engaged with the enemy.  In fact, in Iraq, some of the highest causalities were in MP units (and Transportation units),  Occupations that are supposed to be "In the rear with the gear."  Given today's non-linear battlefield, there no such thing as a "safe" desk job.  (Yes, the POG's got mortared and did take casualties, not as many as the grunts, but some).

Even when I was in, my second Platoon Sergeant had spent his entire career (up until that point) working Garrison Law Enforcement.  He had never been issued TA-50 in 18 years of service !!!  Yet he was an MP.  (As a point of interest, the two soldiers from my former unit, that were killed in DS/DS, were both females). 

Yes, the 20 years is a throw back to when as an enlisted man you spent twenty years out in the west chasing Indians.*  Twenty years, even now, is long time in a job that demands you 24/7/365.   It's not like other jobs where you go home at night (or if you travel, on weekends).   Plus, you don't have much say in where you live, or how long you'll live there.  There are year+ long deployments.   Then there's training cycles.  I remember spending 4 months sleeping on a cot in a GP medium in the tent cities at Grafenwoehr and Hohenfels.  3 months of living like Gypsies during REFORGER's and CARAVAN GUARD's  (Then another 3-4 weeks of playing Uncle Sugar's bagman to pay for Maneuver Damage.  But at least we could stay in Gasthaus's.  =D)     

So, it's not all desk duty, because even the clerks and jerks went with us when we did Gunnery and field exercises.  (If anyone should get full pay after 20 years it's the cooks.  Those folks got up hours before to get breakfast going and stayed up hours late so we could have mid-rats when we were running 24 hour ops.   Even in Garrison we had one mess hall that made mid-rats for all the folks pulling 24 duty.  (Staff Duty, Charge of Quarters, MP's, Medics, etc.)

The current system seems to work pretty well 50% after 20 years (did I mention that you are still subject to recall after retirement and the UCMJ applies also?.  Yeah, there were thousands of retirees recalled for DS/DS.  Not sure how many for OEF/OIF), then it incrementally ratchets up to 75% if you stay for 30.  The pogues that get out at 20 are generally at the E-6/E-7 or O-4/O-5 level.  (for those keeping track at home it would be mostly CW2-CW3 also.)

The goal being you want to keep some of your experienced folks around to teach and train.  My first PSG had been a E-nothing in Vietnam.  That 18th MP Bde BTDT patch on his right shoulder made our troopies sit-up and pay attention to what he said.
 
Cops and Firefighters.  25 years or age 50 for patrol/non-officer positions.  I don't want the guy that's dragging me out of a burning building to have a grabber and we both become crispy-critters.  Same with cops (who should have to pass an annual fitness test.)  I want them to be able to run down Sumdood who tried to break into my house.   But after a certain point, you should be out there on the streets.  Maybe stay as a Detective or Battalion Chief.

25 years for 50% pay seems about right.  And no going back and double dipping, both military and police/firefighters.   


*-  The phrase "He bought the farm" came from this time.  When after 20 years of eating dust in west, you would retire to back east and buy a farm to get married and settle down.   
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BobR

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2015, 01:46:00 PM »
I am another one of those who have been retired longer than I was active duty. With increased life spans, it is the way it works these days. Could I still be doing the job I was trained for? Absolutely, as a P3 Flight Engineer my job was not that physically taxing, as long as I could get past the flight physicals I would still be able to perform that job until I die most likely (or until all of the P3s are scrapped :( ).  There is a large pool of people who loved their jobs in the military, but with the perception it is a young mans game many do not stick around. I flew with another FE in one command that was older than dirt, close to 60 years old, he didn't join the military until the last possible second because he had a civilian FE job on Electra's and until Flying Tiger canned  him (those damn new-fangled jets)he was happy as a clam. He was very capable and willing to do the job.

That being said, I have to agree with Scout, there are a lot of jobs that are not anything like mine and are a young man's territory. I guess they could start out there, and in the course of 40 years move to something less physically demanding.

But, if you keep people in until traditional retirement age think of the various health problems that come along with the normal aging process. Cardiovascular disease, diabetes in some, sleep apnea, pulmonary issues, orthopedic issues, the list can go on and on. With the current VA system, the tax payer would be responsible for paying out billions of dollars in disability payments to the newly retired, along with their retirement. That whole system would have to be scrutinized and addressed.

It is a very complex issue, and something that is not easy to change.

bob


Ben

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2015, 02:24:30 PM »
It would be interesting to look at a retirement system that gave service members "points" for retirement based on combat or hazardous duty. Example = you do a combat tour and you get two years of service credit for retirement. Or you're an MP and you get two years of retirement credit for every year you serve as an MP.
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BobR

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2015, 02:41:34 PM »
It would be interesting to look at a retirement system that gave service members "points" for retirement based on combat or hazardous duty. Example = you do a combat tour and you get two years of service credit for retirement. Or you're an MP and you get two years of retirement credit for every year you serve as an MP.

That sounds like a plan that could work, except hazardous duty would have to be defined a little tighter. The whole time I flew I drew "hazardous duty pay", as well as a lot of other "safe" jobs do. This whole issue is like a big batch of spaghetti thrown into a bowl, as you pull out one strand and tackle it you bring out several other strands that are also connected to the problem and they are all dependent in one way or the other on each other. It is a mess.

bob

Ben

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2015, 03:09:38 PM »
That sounds like a plan that could work, except hazardous duty would have to be defined a little tighter. The whole time I flew I drew "hazardous duty pay", as well as a lot of other "safe" jobs do. This whole issue is like a big batch of spaghetti thrown into a bowl, as you pull out one strand and tackle it you bring out several other strands that are also connected to the problem and they are all dependent in one way or the other on each other. It is a mess.

bob

Yeah, hazard duty in the military is interesting. As a civilian, I got hazard pay when flying, but only when we worked below 500'. The O's flying the plane got monthly hazard pay just for having flight duty. Same with diving.  I got paid on days I dove, but the uniformed personnel got monthly dive pay as long as they had dive orders, even if they only did their required monthly currency dive for 20 minutes in the local harbor.
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Phantom Warrior

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Re: Military Retirement
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2015, 03:10:38 PM »
Really not looking forward to the spittle-flecked rage of all the military I know on Fb. Yes preserve benefits previously promised. But don't go nuts if new recruits and newer people in service end up on TSP only. The 20 year system cannot go on forever with people drawing pay for 40 years after they retire. Last year's unhinged rage from many veterans over a smaller COLA increase was embarrassing and dishonorable as far as I am concerned. I agreed to no specific COLA when I re-enlisted. Nobody ever promised me no changes would be made to retirement while I was serving. People need to think about why they joined and stop acting like union members.

This times a million.  The behavior of a lot of people when any change to military benefits is even proposed (I'm looking at you, tuition assistance) makes me embarrassed to be a veteran.