Author Topic: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome  (Read 3471 times)

MillCreek

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Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« on: March 23, 2015, 10:18:59 PM »
http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20150323/news/150329644/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/shaken-baby-syndrome/

I am going to be very interested to see where the science goes on this, and what the majority medical opinion on this is going to end up.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


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vaskidmark

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2015, 11:42:43 PM »
It's always been rare that forensic evidence points to violent shaking as the indisputable culprit.  Instead, prosecutors and grieving families/spouses have been looking for any explanation that would suggest more than less that the caretaker at the time of the infant's death was responsible for the death.  In other words, they have been playing the emotional card.

What has always bothered me is that the medical profession can point with a great deal of certainty (so they say), and experimentally reproduce, brain surface injuries associated with concussion but can not/have not been able to do so with SBS.

Additionally, based on the scenarios presented by the prosecution, young infant victims of SBS who have little muscle development/control of neck muscles, do not present with soft-tissue (whiplash) injuries to the neck or impingement of the spinal cord architecture.  Yet tests with dummies and with animals all show soft tissue trauma and/or cervical impingement.

The only case I ever worked where SBS was even considered involved a 6-year old who was repeatedly taken by the ankles and had the head swung into walls, the bathtub, and the commode.  The cops told the Commowealth's Attorney that if he went ahead with SBS as opposed to straight-forward 1st-dregee murder there would be professional and personal "repurcussions".

Like Millcreek, I'll be following this to see where it heads.

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

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230RN

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 12:05:48 AM »
Studies show that I'm tired of the back-and-forth tidelike "conclusions" of the medical community as a whole.

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Mannlicher

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 08:30:23 AM »
there has always been controversy about this issue, but the fact remains, that there are dead babies. 

vaskidmark

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 08:31:58 AM »
Studies show that I'm tired of the back-and-forth tidelike "conclusions" of the medical community as a whole.



But were those peer-reviewed double-blind studies?  And did they follow all human research protocols?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

T.O.M.

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 10:24:08 AM »
But were those peer-reviewed double-blind studies?  And did they follow all human research protocols?

stay safe.

Maybe we could volunteer some convicted abusers as test subjects...
No, I'm not mtnbkr.  ;)

a.k.a. "our resident Legal Smeagol."...thanks BryanP
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vaskidmark

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 11:07:55 AM »
Maybe we could volunteer some convicted abusers as test subjects...

Just to determine if the studies showing Terry's tiredness are accurate?

I'd rather use the limited resource to determine the validity of SBS.  And maybe something like a giant paint mixer that straps in everything except the head and neck.  (To ensure repeatable shaking across test subjects.  =D )

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Northwoods

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 11:10:31 AM »
there has always been controversy about this issue, but the fact remains, that there are dead babies.  

Yes, but if they died of natural causes rather than abuse we don't need to punish anyone.  It's adding serious injury to the loss of a child to charge the parent or other caregiver with abuse that might have never happened.
Formerly sumpnz

roo_ster

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 11:19:45 AM »
The night before one of the kids' days-old chicks died.  Obviously it was shaken chick syndrome and not to be expected infant mortality.
Regards,

roo_ster

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vaskidmark

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 12:24:11 PM »
The night before one of the kids' days-old chicks died.  Obviously it was shaken chick syndrome and not to be expected infant mortality.

Shaken or squozed*?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArNz8U7tgU4

stay safe.

* - squeeze, squzed, squozed
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Ned Hamford

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 01:34:10 PM »
The article just seems to rest the concern on what we would call shoddy police and medical work.  A dead child has a brain injury. SBS, Accident, or medical condition that should have never seen them released discharged from the hospital at birth. 
When I interned with the Queen's DA doing white collar crime, we shared a floor with the special victim's unit and there was some training/recruitment educational spillover.  I can recall with all too much vividness a prosecution training video 'explaining' SBS.  Essentially, it related it as a misnomer.  The 'examples' and standards were akin to Vaskidmark's case: " taken by the ankles and had the head swung into walls, the bathtub, and the commode." 
SBS seems a sugar coated cover for the fact folks who otherwise seem like sane and regular members of society can 'flip out' and vent frustrations on the smallest and most vulnerable to deadly effect.  I was present for the video confession of one such person. An at home computer programmer who killed his gf's infant daughter by swinging her by the ankles against the desk, wall, and floor.  He concluded his confession with "my bad."

I think like most people, when I first heard about Shaken Baby Syndrome I had the human perception and concern of how I saw a lot of people playing with babies; a bit rough, whirring them around playing airplane and even tossing them gently into the air.  Having been instructed on the special way to hold a baby to support their neck ect, I thought SBS could be an accident.  Outside of some special circumstance (premature or other increased fragility) babies are as durable as a mother of 3 would have you believe. As long as they don't land wrong they bounce. 
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2015, 06:54:26 PM »
Ned, the story you tell is consistent with my experience.  Never saw a pure SBS case.  Always saw other injuries along with head trauma.  When I tried cases,  I never said"shaken baby syndrome", because I never had to.  It was always abuse.  Hated each perp.  Wished each of them a painful death, and proudly stood as each was lead off to prison.  Volunteered for each appeal.  Child abusers are on my Top 5 hated list.
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MechAg94

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 05:17:07 PM »
Regarding Ned's mention of holding a baby properly, I thought that was only in the first weeks/months after birth. 
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Firethorn

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 05:31:27 PM »
Bouncing babies - as long as they're not hitting something with their head almost as hard as what it'd take to harm an adult, they should be fine.  When the little ones are running around me, my reaction is to hold still - they'll just bounce off my legs.  Stepping on them could cause injury though.

I'm actually surprised that evidence of spinal injury, neck damage and such wasn't part of the 'SBS' theory.  If you're shaking a baby hard enough to cause brain injury, surely you'd be causing damage there, as the dummies they tested with showed.

MechAg94

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2015, 05:33:35 PM »
IMO, this sort of relates to the discussions we have had about people exonerated by DNA evidence.  I see a bad trend of juries failing to use the "beyond a reasonable doubt" axiom when finding someone guilty.  

Maybe it is my cynicism combined with an engineering degree.  I don't think most of those "scientists" are near as smart as some think they are and I don't assume that anything they say is right. 
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Ned Hamford

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2015, 09:15:49 PM »
IMO, this sort of relates to the discussions we have had about people exonerated by DNA evidence.  I see a bad trend of juries failing to use the "beyond a reasonable doubt" axiom when finding someone guilty.  

Maybe it is my cynicism combined with an engineering degree.  I don't think most of those "scientists" are near as smart as some think they are and I don't assume that anything they say is right. 

I think the proper use of an expert is to explain methodology, walk through said methodology, and state what should be obvious to anyone paying close attention.  I've seen far to many 'Trust me, I'm the expert' jobs. While it is fun to rip them apart, you either need to be on the ball enough to do so or laying out the expense for your own counter expert.  I think its about respect for the jury.  Being a somewhat random sampling of the populous; the worthiness does vary; but we can aspire to that platonic ideal right? 
Improbus a nullo flectitur obsequio.

vaskidmark

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Re: Doubts about Shaken Baby Syndrome
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 11:24:44 PM »
Regarding Ned's mention of holding a baby properly, I thought that was only in the first weeks/months after birth. 

A reasonable rule of thumb would be to support the head/neck until Little Baby Snookums is able hold its head up by itself.

The literature, CPS case documentation, and what happened to me at age 6 indicate that kids falling from changing tables (especially onto carpeted floors), off swingsets/teeter-totters/jungle gyms, off bikes with or without training wheels, and my spectacular tripping over the stair threshold at the top of the stairs leading to the basement, flying down without touching a single riser, and landing on my forehead causing a 2-foot long crack on a reinforced concrete floor*, so not normally result in concussions, cranial fractures (excepr in infants whose fontanels have not fused), or brain bleeds.

OTOH, a good forehand or backhand crack to the side/back of the head can cause a subdural hematoma.

You have no idea how satisfying it is to have the ER doctor pull out a stack of reports/studies and offering  expert opinion that if the accused abuser's expert witness was not even aware of them let alone conversant with the contents and conclusions they might just not be competent to testify on the issue.

stay safe.

*/sup] - that was when I learned how to chip out a crack wider at the bottom than at the top.  A skill I never had to use again.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.