Author Topic: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation  (Read 4169 times)

Stand_watie

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Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« on: November 05, 2006, 07:38:41 PM »
This picture on BBC



the accompanying story (which I'm afraid is the typical BBC crock of *expletive deleted*it)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6118510.stm

How does the world most effectively combat the horror of children dying from lack of food (I will say that I firmly believe that there is plenty of food overall, problems lie in getting food to those who need it most) within a framework of human rights and democratic choice? Give money to the leaders of their country? Education? Birth control? Benevolent Imperial despotism? Globalism?
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Sylvilagus Aquaticus

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2006, 07:50:05 PM »
The problem as I see it is that the authorities in 'those countries' determine who gets what based on politics, tribal lines, religious alliances, and graft.  Unfortunately, unless those children can carry a bomb or a Kalashnikov for said authorities, they're going to starve. No amount of CARE packages, UNICEF donations, USAID, or televangelist donations will make a difference until the administrative authorities in those countries decide it'll go in equal measure to all.

The answer? The quickest is to install a friendly regime who will do humanitarian bidding.  I didn't say easiest. There is no easy answer, as long as food, water, medicine and aid is weaponized.

Folks been starving all over the world for a long, long time, and not just in Africa.  People in central and eastern Europe were starving in 1945.

Regards,
Rabbit.
To punish me for my contempt for authority, fate made me an authority myself.
Albert Einstein

Stand_watie

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2006, 08:04:23 PM »
...I didn't say easiest. There is no easy answer, as long as food, water, medicine and aid is weaponized...Regards,
Rabbit.

That, right there my friend, is a great point. Thanks for bringing it up.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2006, 08:33:18 PM »
The children that you save today may grow up to be the warriors that kill you tomorrow. Because you helped.

You cannot help people/organizations/tribes/societies that would not help themselves. If somebody has 10 children they cannot feed today, what guarantees that tomorrow they won't have 20 when you feed the 10? Where does it end? World socialism? No, thanks. Nobody's life is worth my individual freedoms.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2006, 08:37:10 PM »
Silvagus is right, the problem is political.  The existing despotism must be replaced by self-rule and the free market.  Before that happens, no amount of foreign money or donation will be enough.  After that happens, no foreign money or donation will be needed.

Cannoneer is also right.  Political change probably must come from within.  Colonization would work, but sadly has fallen out of favor in the modern era.  Those suffering are on their own.

Stand_watie

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2006, 08:38:19 PM »
Lest anyone think that africa is the only consideration here, this topic first caught my heartstrings a few months ago, watching a documentary made by a bbc journalist who smuggled video out of North Korea. I watched starving orphans literally scrabble for crumbs underneath the tables of priviledged communists who ignored them as they ate at an outdoor resturaunt in NK.

I know that hunger doesn't have a political ideology, but I seem to note it is worse where political oppression is greatest. Socialist utopias like Sweden and Norway (I don't condone socialism, I think it's a moronic economic ideal) seem to have fewer starving children, but more freedom of choice in political matters. Socialist utopias like Zimbabwe and N. Korea though, seem the obverse. Socialism and capitalism both seem worse as a system when power is consolidated into the hands of an elite few.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2006, 08:48:24 PM »
"Socialist utopias" like Sweden and Norway aren't really socialist.  Citizens are still mostly free to pursue whatever careers and business opportunities they think will best serve their interests, and they're still allowed to keep a portion of their own incomes to provide for their needs.  Citizens still enjoy democratic self-rule.  Think of it as an ugly and distorted reflection of a free society - it looks almost like a free society if you squint.

I think the proper poly sci term for these types of government is Keynesian Welfare State. 

Stand_watie

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2006, 09:08:28 PM »
"Socialist utopias" like Sweden and Norway aren't really socialist.  Citizens are still mostly free to pursue whatever careers and business opportunities they think will best serve their interests, and they're still allowed to keep a portion of their own incomes to provide for their needs.  Citizens still enjoy democratic self-rule.  Think of it as an ugly and distorted reflection of a free society - it looks almost like a free society if you squint.

I think the proper poly sci term for these types of government is Keynesian Welfare State. 

You may well have it much more right than my terminology. My reference for "socialist" was the % of income taken by the government. As you state, under democratic self rule, which suggests that the majority of citizens at least, are responsible for their own well being.

Don't get me wrong - I don't suggest for a minute that most of the citizens of those states wouldn't have a better quality of life under overt capitalism...I was merely making the point that there are socialist states that are primarily benevolent, even if they are hampered by clumsy fiscal policy.

My favorite comparison is to the premier American-of-European-descent founders; the Puritans. Started out as a bunch of socialists, and within just a few dozen years figured out just how bad an economic system it was, and adapted to reality. In the meantime they had a very advanced level of human rights for their time period and (other than fiscal) democracy - they just didn't have too much economic freedom.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

"You can have my gun when you pry it from my cold dead fingers"

"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #8 on: November 06, 2006, 02:45:25 AM »
Cannoneer is also right. 
Oh, I thought he was ruthlessly social-Darwinistic, as per usual. 

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ilbob

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #9 on: November 06, 2006, 03:31:11 AM »
Food is often used as a weapon, and has been for as long as mankind has been around. It has never been all that unusual for invaders to burn crops, salt wells, etc., to kill the populace. It is not a new idea.
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Hutch

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #10 on: November 06, 2006, 03:37:53 AM »
I am a pure, dyed in the wool laissez-faire capitalist/libertarian.

That being said...

Capitalism and representative government can only flourish when there is a social contract in place that demands the enforcement of laws and contracts, relatively unbiased courts, and some sense of the ability to seek redress of grievance short of the machete or AK.  All these things have to develop together, and at a measured pace, or else you get the kind of mayhem we see in Iraq, and to some degree, in Russia.

An acquaintance and I corresponded recently regarding the mass migration from Mexico.  Not to move the thread to a "Seal the Borders!" line of discussion, we were trying to figure out why the economic conditions in Mexico were so poor, when the natural resources of the country were so great.  I finally decreed (rather pompously) that with self rule, fair courts, and capitalism, the economy will ALWAYS improve over time.  That more people will move out of poverty, more will move to middle class, and some will get wealthy.  So, what do Africans, or Mexicans or Laotians need to make this happen?  Capitalism without enforcable contracts has given rise to the Russian Mafia.  Capitalism (of a sort) without a social contract or impartial courts has given rise to Mexican incursions.  Whateverthehell they have in Iraq without a social contract that permits a redress of grievance without sectarian violence gives us... whateverthehell we have going on in Iraq.  Capitalism alone, representative government alone, social stability alone, just can't cope.  Got to have at least SOME of all of it together.
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HankB

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2006, 04:04:15 AM »
Ah, yes, the benefits of majority rule in Africa have become apparent. It's SO good that native Africans threw off the oppressive yoke of their white Colonial rulers and returned to their basic cultural roots.  rolleyes

This is what happens when ignorant tribesmen gain control over more than their own small villages.
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If somebody has 10 children they cannot feed today, what guarantees that tomorrow they won't have 20 when you feed the 10?
The only guarantee is that if you feed 10 today, you'll have 20 the next day. Feed them, and you'll have 40 . . . and so forth and so on.
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Stand_watie

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2006, 04:41:56 AM »
Hutch, very well put.
Yizkor. Lo Od Pa'am

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"Never again"

"Malone Labe"

Art Eatman

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2006, 05:37:54 AM »
The thugs of thugocracies don't care about the populace.  They only care about the power and the perks for themselves and their own supporters.  the supporters can be a minority, if they have the guns.  Example?  Saddam and his Sunnis.  Same for all over Africa.

Bleeding hearts won't listen to any real-world analysis; they only look at the pictures of the starving folks.  A great example was the rock-and-roll concerts to raise money to buy wheat to ship to Ethiopia.  They wound up with some $50 million worth of wheat.  The ships arrived.  The "government" took the wheat for itself and its allies and sold the remainder into the black market.  The intended recipients never got any.

The only choice for the so-called civilized world is to either forcibly remove the thugs, or watch some form of rebellion and civil war occur.  Unfortunately, the leaders of the rebellious groups, if successful, are then merely the next iteration of thugs.

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wingnutx

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2006, 05:52:04 AM »
Quote
"For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!"

The Kenyan economics expert James Shikwati, 35, says that aid to Africa does more harm than good. The avid proponent of globalization spoke with SPIEGEL about the disastrous effects of Western development policy in Africa, corrupt rulers, and the tendency to overstate the AIDS problem.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

roo_ster

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2006, 08:48:54 AM »
There are no easy answers.

Quickest would be re-colonization by a western power.  There would be order...until the western power got tired of ruling them & handed it back over.

Throwing more money down the third-world money pit is an exercise in futiity.

One can only hope & pray that, someday, they will crawl out of the mire.
Regards,

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Mannlicher

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2006, 09:42:17 AM »
The saddest part of starvation and disease in Africa is that the leaders of those countries are despots, riding in Mercedes limos, living in mansions, traveling in style, and begging daily for more MONEY.  Desmond Tutu now wants all debts owed by Africa forgiven.  Might as well write them off, none of these warlords have any intention to pay back the money anyway. 

CAnnoneer

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2006, 12:48:41 PM »
Cannoneer is also right. 
Oh, I thought he was ruthlessly social-Darwinistic, as per usual. 

Why, yes, I am shamelessly consistent. But you seem to imply that the two states are mutually exclusive, so you must provide substantiation then.


Perd Hapley

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #18 on: November 07, 2006, 06:42:15 AM »
I don't need to substantiate anything.  Do you really want to start arguing over which moral basis is superior?  (i.e., self-preservation over individual worth) I'm getting tired of it.  It's not just you, we've gone around on that a million times around here. 
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AJ Dual

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2006, 06:59:13 AM »
Quote
"For God's Sake, Please Stop the Aid!"

The Kenyan economics expert James Shikwati, 35, says that aid to Africa does more harm than good. The avid proponent of globalization spoke with SPIEGEL about the disastrous effects of Western development policy in Africa, corrupt rulers, and the tendency to overstate the AIDS problem.


http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html

Plus 1x10^6...

This link bears repeating: http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiegel/0,1518,363663,00.html


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BakerMikeRomeo

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2006, 06:59:49 AM »
Quote
Benevolent Imperial despotism?

Yes. If Westerners really gave a silly half-crap about Africa, much of that godforsaken continent'd be sippin' on a tall, cold glass of Benevolent Imperialism right now. Africa needs the evils of the first imperial era (borders drawn along what a bunch of Europeans thought was cool, as opposed to territorial and tribal boundaries, in particular) to be forcibly undone, and proper governments set up in their place.

So I say invade Africa, one suckhole state at a time, and do right where our ancestors did wrong.

~GnSx

tyme

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Re: Dear Lord, this rips my heart - African (any) starvation
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2006, 09:37:49 AM »
Quote
So I say invade Africa, one suckhole state at a time, and do right where our ancestors did wrong.
Most former colonies are no longer colonies.  There's no authority to redraw their borders.  Any attempt would cause civil war: those who benefit from current corrupt governments, against those who are oppressed by them.

If the Chinese government started accepting human aid care packages (for "distribution to the needy", would you send them?  How is sub-Saharan Africa any different?

I think the problem with many aid organizations is that not only do they implicitly reject capitalism as a solution, but they reject any sort of cost-benefit analysis of what they're doing.  It doesn't matter to them what the consequences of aid might be.  It doesn't even matter if aid gets to the right people.  What matters is that they can gloss over the reality and claim they're "providing aid," which gets them more funding ("for the mortgage") along with sociological benefits (it certainly goes over well at cocktail parties to say that you're involved with a foreign aid program).  Their hearts are in the right place, at least most of them are; I doubt many aid workers want to prop up corrupt third-world governments.  Still, adults are supposed to know that good intentions don't always cut it.

Aid organizations are mostly unwilling to consider that food and medicine are weaponized by most corrupt countries, and therefore they don't face difficult comparisons between what they're doing and, for instance, U.S. aid to Iraq against Iran, or aid to Afghanistan against Russia.

It might not be such a bad model to say that anything any government disperses or withholds is a weapon.
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