Author Topic: Our government at work  (Read 1451 times)

Monkeyleg

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Our government at work
« on: July 31, 2015, 04:16:05 PM »
I received an order today for two Trjicon RMR red dot sights. I called the customer to let him know the order would be shipped signature required. He asked if he needed to do anything with exports, because he was taking these two with his rifles on a trip to South Africa.

I said I'd check on it. I wanted to know for myself what the law was.

I started by calling Trijicon, and talking to the guy in charge of ITAR compliance. He said he thought that a red dot for personal use should be okay, but gave me the number of a State Department person to talk to.

The State Department guy didn't know what a red dot sight was, but said that this would fall under the jurisdiction of the Bureau of Industry and Security at the Commerce Department. He gave me their number.

I called there, and spoke with a representative. He said that, even though the customer just wanted to take the sights out of the country on vacation, he would need to open an account with the Commerce Department, and then file for a SNAP-R license for export.

I told the customer all of this, and he said he'd call them. My guess is that he moved on to another retailer and didn't say anything about export.

These are red dot sights. They're not night vision or thermal. They're not high tech anymore. They've been around for 30 or 40 years. They're not some secret we need to keep from the Russians or Iranians, especially considering what our president is giving the Iranians.

We have reached a point where the bureaucracy effectively makes up laws as it goes along.

SADShooter

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2015, 04:29:01 PM »
Why should a GS-7/9/11/12/? with a B.A. who's in the job because they couldn't/wouldn't work in a more lucrative field be expected to understand and explain ITAR/FAR/CFR/etc.?

My theory on government employees, after being one for 20-odd years, is they break down as follows:

+/- 20% in the job out of school to gain experience and move up the career ladder

+/- 15% competent/committed, but need benefits/stability

+/- 65% couldn't make it in a competitive environment or hired under affirmative action/EEO programs

Of these, the Pareto Principle tells us that 20% do 80% of the work in a given organization.
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41magsnub

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2015, 04:41:11 PM »
Would taking something on a personal trip really fall under ITAR?  It isn't export, right?

Brad Johnson

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2015, 05:03:13 PM »
If a similar situatio happens in the future I'd be tempted to leave it at a simple "I don't know" even if you intend to check on it. By committing get the info you shoulder the liability for it's accuracy. Maybe not in the eyes of the law but certainly in the perception of the buyer. If something happens your name will be first on his/her bottom-feeder's hit list.

That being said I would have expected Trijicon's legal dept to be more knowledgeable. After all it's their job to deal with this kind of stuff.

Brad
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2015, 06:21:11 PM »
If a similar situatio happens in the future I'd be tempted to leave it at a simple "I don't know" even if you intend to check on it. By committing get the info you shoulder the liability for it's accuracy. Maybe not in the eyes of the law but certainly in the perception of the buyer. If something happens your name will be first on his/her bottom-feeder's hit list.

That being said I would have expected Trijicon's legal dept to be more knowledgeable. After all it's their job to deal with this kind of stuff.

Brad

I think the retailer bears responsibility if he knows the buyer intends to export. I could be mistaken, but I hate to find out the hard way.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2015, 07:56:06 PM »
If they are buying for export, yes. If they are buying for domestic use I don't see how their proposed personal vacation would fall under that category, legally or ethically. That's when I'd put the liability back in their court.

Brad
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"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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vaskidmark

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2015, 08:12:10 PM »
If they are buying for export, yes. If they are buying for domestic use I don't see how their proposed personal vacation would fall under that category, legally or ethically. That's when I'd put the liability back in their court.

Brad

Just in case - what flavor cake do you want on visiting day?  It's no longer unwarranted paranoia to consider that anything you do (or don't do) may be a felony.

stay safe.
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They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2015, 08:52:36 PM »
If they are buying for export, yes. If they are buying for domestic use I don't see how their proposed personal vacation would fall under that category, legally or ethically. That's when I'd put the liability back in their court.

Brad

He told me. I've had members of the military call from in the US to buy ACOG's. Several have said they were going back to Afghanistan or Iraq and wanted to get their own scope before leaving. I had to tell them I couldn't sell to them, and they should have lied.

The government takes this stuff really seriously. I didn't know how serious they were until I reported someone and then spent an hour on the phone giving details to an FBI agent who does nothing but investigate ITAR cases.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2015, 11:47:30 PM »
Just in case - what flavor cake do you want on visiting day?  It's no longer unwarranted paranoia to consider that anything you do (or don't do) may be a felony.

stay safe.

Tres leches, preferably.

Brad
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
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griz

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2015, 11:50:28 PM »
You probably got the run around for the simple reason that they not only didn't know, the laws are so complicated that they couldn't know without a team of lawyers.  Part of the plan to make everything illegal, then the government can go after anybody that irritates them.
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just Warren

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2015, 11:53:00 PM »
ACOG Shrugged.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2015, 11:56:12 PM »
You probably got the run around for the simple reason that they not only didn't know, the laws are so complicated that they couldn't know without a team of lawyers.  Part of the plan to make everything illegal, then the government can go after anybody that irritates them.

Cops do that a lot. If they don't know that something is expressly legal, they just assume it's illegal.

HankB

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2015, 12:24:30 PM »
. . . the laws are so complicated that they couldn't know without a team of lawyers . . .
And note that teams of lawyers may well disagree - as can panels of judges. (Note the split decisions by SCOTUS recently.)

If a law is so complicated that it takes a team of lawyers or a panel of judges to determine it's meaning, how in the world can it apply to anyone EXCEPT a team of lawyers or panel of judges? Something to ponder if you're ever on a jury and it's not a team of lawyers or panel of judges that's on trial . . .
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seeker_two

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Re:
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2015, 08:42:25 PM »
Would it be illegal for you to post a disclaimer on your website stating that, "I just sell stuff. Don't tell me what you're going to do with it."
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Tallpine

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2015, 09:24:16 PM »
At least we're not a police state  :P
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Monkeyleg

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Re: Our government at work
« Reply #15 on: August 01, 2015, 09:27:08 PM »
In cases like this, prosecutors have to prove intent, which is difficult. But I'd have to incur the expense of an attorney just to prove I didn't know someone was going to do something illegal.

roo_ster

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Re: Re: Our government at work
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2015, 01:35:03 AM »
At least we're not a police state  :P
Yep.  And i sure do feel safer knowing monkeyleg can end up in federal pound me in the ass prison for selling sights that the chinese can produce rough equivalents of for pennies on the dollar.

Makes me proud.
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bedlamite

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Re: Re: Our government at work
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2015, 01:44:36 AM »
Yep.  And i sure do feel safer knowing monkeyleg can end up in federal pound me in the ass prison for selling sights that the chinese can produce rough equivalents of for pennies on the dollar.

Makes me proud.

What's really funny is some of those Chinese sights supposedly fall under ITAR.
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RevDisk

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Re: Re: Our government at work
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2015, 04:15:07 PM »

Uh. Yes, taking ITAR stuff out of the country is an export. Taking stuff out of the country that is ITAR but was manufactured overseas is called a "re-export" and also illegal unless there is a license or exemption that applies. There ARE exemptions for Temporary Exports that may apply. Yes, red dots are ancient technology at this point. But the law was written when it would have been considered high tech. Plain glass optics are also controlled as well.

I'd need to know the classification of the scope. Trijicon should be able to tell you if it's ITAR or EAR. If not, they're bloody morons and their export people need firing. You can self classify or file for a commodity jurisdiction with State to get a ruling.

Then go looking at the regs for Commerce or State to find a temporary license exemption, or Limited Value Shipment.

I seriously need to start a business selling firearm exporting advice or something.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Re: Our government at work
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2015, 05:29:34 PM »
.

I seriously need to start a business selling firearm exporting advice or something.

How much would you charge for a gross of something?  Why do most folks charge more for red something than for digicam?

stay safe.
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

bedlamite

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Re: Re: Our government at work
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2015, 05:57:21 PM »
I seriously need to start a business selling firearm exporting advice or something.

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