Author Topic: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts  (Read 1692 times)

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,021
  • APS Risk Manager
Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« on: February 09, 2016, 03:56:00 PM »
http://www.seattletimes.com/life/travel/read-the-fine-print-you-might-get-sued-for-a-negative-online-review/

Back in the day, in Contracts class, they did teach me to read them before signing them.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2016, 04:21:18 PM »
http://www.seattletimes.com/life/travel/read-the-fine-print-you-might-get-sued-for-a-negative-online-review/

Back in the day, in Contracts class, they did teach me to read them before signing them.

Always read the contract before signing. And anyone that has a gag clause is not someone you want to rent from.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,353
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2016, 05:55:16 PM »
Always read the contract before signing. And anyone that has a gag clause is not someone you want to rent from.

Agreed.

From the article:

Quote
“I consider this an egregious example of free-speech stifling as well as old-school bullying,” Fedigan says. “If you look at public reviews on his property, they are all positive. Clearly, his bullying tactics are effective at dissuading the publishing of negative reviews.”

I consider Fedigan to be an egregious example of an idiot. It's neither bullying nor free-speech stifling if you signed an agreement not to post negative reviews. It's called a "c-o-n-t-r-a-c-t," and people sign them all the time. They stipulate the terms to which BOTH parties have agreed.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,846
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2016, 07:25:21 PM »
Damages assessment would be interesting
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

BlueStarLizzard

  • Queen of the Cislords
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 15,039
  • Oh please, nobody died last time...
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2016, 07:53:23 PM »
I can understand why these people want the gag clause in their rental contracts though.

We've had a collection of really nasty reviews online that were outright lies from outraged former customers. People these days really like to use the internet to bully businesses that have the nerve to say "yeah, no, sometimes the customer is wrong."
"Okay, um, I'm lost. Uh, I'm angry, and I'm armed, so if you two have something that you need to work out --" -Malcolm Reynolds

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,021
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2016, 08:05:17 PM »
^^^It almost makes me weep to read some of the nasty things people say about us on Yelp and Facebook. 
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,021
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2016, 08:06:32 PM »
Damages assessment would be interesting

If I was drafting the contract, it would specify an amount as liquidated damages.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,353
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2016, 08:18:03 PM »
If I was drafting the contract, it would specify an amount as liquidated damages.

My understanding from construction contracts is that liquidated damages are enforceable only if they bear some approximation to what actual damages might be, if proven. In other words, if the most a claimant might be able to show at trial (or arbitration) is $10,000 or thereabouts, a court would not enforce a clause setting liquidated damages at $100,000.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,021
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2016, 08:37:17 PM »
^^^You would want to name a figure that has some basis in reality and would not shock the conscience of the court.  For a vacation rental, I would probably specify a week's rental fee as the amount. 
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,846
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2016, 09:02:42 PM »
If I was drafting the contract, it would specify an amount as liquidated damages.

What's the status of liquidated damages clauses in WA?  Is it just that they're valid so long as they don't shook the conscience?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

230RN

  • saw it coming.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 18,945
  • ...shall not be allowed.
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2016, 10:07:52 PM »
The people who are most motivated to write any review at all are the POed ones, so there's always an imbalance there when you check out a product or service.

On the other hand, sometimes it's glaringly obvious that the service or product provider has hired shills to write glowingly positive puff-pieces.

Take Harbor Freight, for example.  Their catalogues have little one-to-five star customer satisfaction ratings for some of the products shown.  I've never seen an entry on an item which is less than four stars.  Makes you wonder how they figured those ratings.  (I have noticed their customer service is pretty good, so maybe they're counting how many calls result in resolution versus how many result in vein-bulging outrage or something to get those four-out-of-five star ratings.)

Anyhow, when I review on-line reports or comments, I mainly look for "things to look out for," and generally discount "this thing is a POS" remarks except for the "why" parts of them.

I mean, just look at the reactions when you mention Hi-Point firearms.  An awful lot of folks just seem to jump on the POS bandwagon without actually having had one.

So.  Negative reviews?  Meh.

Terry

« Last Edit: February 10, 2016, 04:49:46 PM by 230RN »
WHATEVER YOUR DEFINITION OF "INFRINGE " IS, YOU SHOULDN'T BE DOING IT.

MillCreek

  • Skippy The Wonder Dog
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,021
  • APS Risk Manager
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2016, 10:26:09 PM »
What's the status of liquidated damages clauses in WA?  Is it just that they're valid so long as they don't shook the conscience?



We have statutory and case law up the wazoo here in Washingon on this. They are generally favored and enforceable with two key tests: they must be reasonable and provide just compensation for the harm caused by the breach; it must be difficult or impossible to determine the harm before the breach.  They will not be upheld if the provision is determined to be a penalty, or otherwise unlawful, or shock the conscience of the court.
_____________
Regards,
MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2016, 09:17:15 AM »
Must the conscience be present to be shocked? Or can it be shocked in absentia?
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2016, 09:51:24 AM »
The people who are most motivated to write any review at all are the POed ones, so there's always an imbalance there when you check out a product or service.

On the other hand, sometimes it's glaringly obvious that the service or product provider has hired shills to write glowingly positive puff-pieces.

Take Harbor Freight, for example.  Their catalogues have little one-to-five star customer satisfaction ratings for each product shown.  I've never seen an entry on an item which is less than four stars.  Makes you wonder how they figured those ratings.  (I have noticed their customer service is pretty good, so maybe they're counting how many calls result in resolution versus how many result in vein-bulging outrage or something to get those four-out-of-five star ratings.)

Anyhow, when I review on-line reports or comments, I mainly look for "things to look out for," and generally discount "this thing is a POS" remarks except for the "why" parts of them.

I mean, just look at the reactions when you mention Hi-Point firearms.  An awful lot of folks just seem to jump on the POS bandwagon without actually having had one.

So.  Negative reviews?  Meh.

Terry




Negative reviews generally have a large emotional aspect to them. I'm a review junkie myself, the things I look for is repeated problems across several reviews, and possible workarounds or solutions offered by the reviewers. If an item or service is something I already want, I have to weigh it against the known defects to see if its really worth it for me.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

RevDisk

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,633
    • RevDisk.net
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2016, 11:32:39 AM »
^^^It almost makes me weep to read some of the nasty things people say about us on Yelp and Facebook. 

Problem is, they're not verified. Yelp is notorious to it, and trying to shake down companies to remove bad reviews. South Park did an excellent show on it.

That said, it's useful information if taken with a grain of salt. Amazon's rating system is very crucial to me because for work I buy a lot of weird one off stuff.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Jamisjockey

  • Booze-fueled paragon of pointless cruelty and wanton sadism
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 26,580
  • Your mom sends me care packages
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2016, 11:45:16 AM »
If I'm looking at a vacation rental, resort, etc, I always read the bad reviews.  Content is everything.  "Roaches in the bathroom, undercooked room service food, wifi connection spotty" specific type reviews are the ones to take seriously.  Anything that includes how someone's feelings were hurt, mean staff, etc I take with a huge grain of salt.  Unless they're specific and repeated "bellhops were rude and slow" you know.
JD

 The price of a lottery ticket seems to be the maximum most folks are willing to risk toward the dream of becoming a one-percenter. “Robert Hollis”

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2016, 12:25:29 PM »
If I'm looking at a vacation rental, resort, etc, I always read the bad reviews.  Content is everything.  "Roaches in the bathroom, undercooked room service food, wifi connection spotty" specific type reviews are the ones to take seriously.  Anything that includes how someone's feelings were hurt, mean staff, etc I take with a huge grain of salt.  Unless they're specific and repeated "bellhops were rude and slow" you know.


If I wrote a review about the place I stayed in jamaica a few years ago, I would almost expect to get sued.
-Resort staff/security approaching guests in an attempt to sell drugs/prostitutes.
-Resort staff shakedown of guests (maid reports 'open safe' locks down safe. Security comes to open safe and examine contents of safe), this happened to 4 different rooms in the wedding group I was there with. When they pulled this one on me, my uncle got in the security guards face and told everyone "This mother *expletive deleted*er tried to sell me drugs last night!"
-Food service usually took over an hour, food was terrible and bland.


"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2016, 02:14:00 PM »
I always read reviews, particularly for restaurants, more for the general consensus and with my bullshitometer cranked up. If I'm reading a ton of great reviews and handful of obvious whiners I tend to ignore them unless it's a good reason some folks might have overlooked. My favorite are ethnic restaurants. I love low reviews not because food was prepared poorly, but because they just don't like the style of food. Or because it wasn't a shitty Americanized McDonald's version of the food type. "I hate sushi, this sushi place sucks!" "Holy *expletive deleted*it that Korean food was funky and spicy!" "This pizza is *expletive deleted*it, I'm sticking with Dominoes!"

Hotels are another fun one. I am always amazed at the number of folks who will get a cheap room and then proceed to write a review slamming the place...for being everything one could hope for in a perfectly acceptable budget room. "I slept just fine and didn't get bedbugs, but damn this place aint been renovated in the last six months. Over priced sixty dolla a night thieving bastards! One star!"
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

41magsnub

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 7,579
  • Don't make me assume my ultimate form!
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2016, 02:33:22 PM »
Another good one is trashing the product because the shipper screwed up, but in no way addressing the actual product.  "This widget sucks, Fed Ex lost the package for 2 days!!!!  One Star!!!" 

Or the premature review "Product just showed up, seems to be great but I haven't used it yet.  5 stars"

lupinus

  • Southern Mod Trimutive Emeritus
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,178
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2016, 04:24:43 PM »
Another good one is trashing the product because the shipper screwed up, but in no way addressing the actual product.  "This widget sucks, Fed Ex lost the package for 2 days!!!!  One Star!!!" 

Or the premature review "Product just showed up, seems to be great but I haven't used it yet.  5 stars"
ah yes, love those too
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,870
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2016, 04:35:57 PM »
Another good one is trashing the product because the shipper screwed up, but in no way addressing the actual product.  "This widget sucks, Fed Ex lost the package for 2 days!!!!  One Star!!!" 

Or the premature review "Product just showed up, seems to be great but I haven't used it yet.  5 stars"
I have put in a review on Amazon because I got only half my order, but I stated that was the issue.  I then changed it after they got me the full order.  I made no comment on the quality of the product though. 

I usually look for specifics when I look at all.  There are always a lot of one line reviews that say little.  Those appear to be fake.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

MechAg94

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 33,870
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2016, 04:37:00 PM »
As for the OP, I doubt I would want to sign a clause saying no negative reviews.  However, I think it would be fair to ask that customers do not intentionally lie in the review.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

RoadKingLarry

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,841
Re: Anti-disparagement clauses in vacation rental contracts
« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2016, 02:10:55 AM »
You just have to phrase it in a positive manner.
Something like-
I went XYZ resort to relax and escape the day to day rat race. I found the pleasant absence of wifi/cell coverage/cable/satellite TV to be just what I needed for relaxation.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.

Samuel Adams