AR argument.

[Andiron]

Currently having it out with an individual that insists all Scary Looking Guns were banned during the AWB (specifically all AR15's).  Anyone have Shotgun News of the time or something similar I can use to educate said idiot?

Here's what he keeps referencing:


(30)The term semiautomatic assault weapon means any of the following: (A)The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof: (i)AK, AKM, AKS, AK–47, AK–74, ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90, NHM 91, SA 85, SA 93, VEPR; (ii)AR–10; (iii)AR–15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite M15, or Olympic Arms PCR; (iv)AR70; (v)Calico Liberty; (vi)Dragunov SVD Sniper Rifle or Dragunov SVU; (vii)Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, or FNC; (viii)Hi-Point Carbine; (ix)HK–91, HK–93, HK–94, or HK–PSG–1; (x)Kel-Tec Sub Rifle; (xi)M1 Carbine; (xii)Saiga; (xiii)SAR–8, SAR–4800; (xiv)SKS with detachable magazine; (xv)SLG 95; (xvi)SLR 95 or 96; (xvii)Steyr AUG; (xviii)Sturm, Ruger Mini–14; (xix)Tavor; (xx)Thompson 1927, Thompson M1, or Thompson 1927 Commando; or (xxi)Uzi, Galil and Uzi Sporter, Galil Sporter, or Galil Sniper Rifle (Galatz). (B)The following pistols or copies or duplicates thereof: (i)Calico M–110; (ii)MAC–10, MAC–11, or MPA3; (iii)Olympic Arms OA; (iv)TEC–9, TEC–DC9, TEC–22 Scorpion, or AB–10; or (v)Uzi. (C)The following shotguns or copies or duplicates thereof: (i)Armscor 30 BG; (ii)SPAS 12 or LAW 12; (iii)Striker 12; or (iv)Streetsweeper. (D)A semiautomatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine, and that has— (i)a folding or telescoping stock; (ii)a threaded barrel; (iii)a pistol grip; (iv)a forward grip; or (v)a barrel shroud. (E) (i)Except as provided in clause (ii), a semiautomatic rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. (ii)Clause (i) shall not apply to an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with, .22 caliber rimfire ammunition. (F)A semiautomatic pistol that has the ability to accept a detachable magazine, and has— (i)a second pistol grip; (ii)a threaded barrel; (iii)a barrel shroud; or (iv)the capacity to accept a detachable magazine at a location outside of the pistol grip. (G)A semiautomatic pistol with a fixed magazine that has the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds. (H)A semiautomatic shotgun that has— (i)a folding or telescoping stock; (ii)a pistol grip; (iii)the ability to accept a detachable magazine; or (iv)a fixed magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds. (I)A shotgun with a revolving cylinder. (J)A frame or receiver that is identical to, or based substantially on the frame or receiver of, a firearm described in any of subparagraphs (A) through (I) or (L). (K)A conversion kit. (L)A semiautomatic rifle or shotgun originally designed for military or law enforcement use, or a firearm based on the design of such a firearm, that is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, as determined by the Attorney General. In making the determination, there shall be a rebuttable presumption that a firearm procured for use by the United States military or any Federal law enforcement agency is not particularly suitable for sporting purposes, and a firearm shall not be determined to be particularly suitable for sporting purposes solely because the firearm is suitable for use in a sporting event.

[cordex]

[cordex]

Also, I legally built my first AR in 1999 or 2000 right smack dab in the middle of the ban.

[Fly320s]

Can't he just find a gun shop online and browse their inventory?

[cordex]

Can't he just find a gun shop online and browse their inventory?

I think the point is not that ARs are available now, but that functionally equivalent firearms were still available during the ban.

[Hawkmoon]

And they were. During the Federal AWB period, I bought a post-ban AR-15. The model was the Olympic Arms (plinker," and it was about as bare-bones as could be. It had a A1-style buttstock, A1- or A2-style rear aperture sight with none of the A3 or A4 adjustments, no bayonet lug, and no flash hider (or compensator). It came with one 10-round magazine.

[Perd Hapley]

Try googling for "post-ban" images, like the one above?

[cordex]

Try googling for "post-ban" images, like the one above?

Note also the date in the advertisement.

[MechAg94]

My first AR was an Armalite I bought new a few years before the AWB expired.  It had no bayonet lug and had a fixed stock.

[griz]

They did ban AR-15s by name with the AWB.  And they were shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when the makers changed the name to, as the ad shows, XM-15 and didn't put on a bayonet lug.  I remember the AWB proponents whining about them using loopholes to get around the spirit of the ban.  In reality you can't ban only the scariest looking guns when you don't even understand why you are scared of them.

[MechAg94]

Plus, they limited magazine capacities, but even in the 9th year of the ban, you could still find 30 round mags for sale. 

[MechAg94]

I heard that AR sales were up right now.  I talked to a local dealer who told me they sold 120 or so in the last week.  However, he said they had so many in inventory that they were not likely to run out.  I think the latest gun control nonsense has caused a buying spree, but I guess there will be no shortage. 

[Perd Hapley]

I heard that AR sales were up right now. 

 ^ The last man in American to get the news.

[brimic]

They did ban AR-15s by name with the AWB.  And they were shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when the makers changed the name to, as the ad shows, XM-15 and didn't put on a bayonet lug.  I remember the AWB proponents whining about them using loopholes to get around the spirit of the ban.  In reality you can't ban only the scariest looking guns when you don't even understand why you are scared of them.

Sort of like when the TEC-9 was changed to the TEC-DC9.   

[AJ Dual]

I heard that AR sales were up right now.  I talked to a local dealer who told me they sold 120 or so in the last week.  However, he said they had so many in inventory that they were not likely to run out.  I think the latest gun control nonsense has caused a buying spree, but I guess there will be no shortage. 

Kind of my take. I'm not seeing any outrageous prices or other signs of a massive panic. Some more things than usual are out of stock, but it's not so much that I'd have noticed if I weren't looking for it.

The current "panic" seems to be meeting the oversupply of the post-Sandy Hook glut. Probably saving a few companies bacon.

I just won a Tavor on Gunbroker for $1500 this week, granted, it was black, not Desert/FDE or OD which command higher prices, but things seem pretty level overall.

Barring major changes in the electoral landscape come November, I think Sandy Hook was a high water mark that the overall state RKBA nationwide, minus outliers like HI, CA, CT, and NY... survived and actually prospered. And before that, VT was a sea change where the entire "shoot back dammit!" meme, while ridiculed, became at least something in the mainstream enough to actually be mentioned.

[MechAg94]

^ The last man in American to get the news.

I guess I can blame you for assuming I meant today. 

[Hawkmoon]

They did ban AR-15s by name with the AWB.  And they were shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, when the makers changed the name to, as the ad shows, XM-15 and didn't put on a bayonet lug.  I remember the AWB proponents whining about them using loopholes to get around the spirit of the ban.

Yep -- the ever-present "loophole" argument.

Heck, I exploit legal loopholes every time I drive a car. I don't like getting speeding tickets, so I exploit the loophole that says I can drive within the speed limit and not get a speeding ticket. The geniuses in Washington drew up a list of "evil" features that [certain] rifles weren't allowed to have, then couldn't understand the simple marketplace economics under which the gun manufacturers then simply built rifles without those features.

The only lie was in calling that a "loophole." No, it wasn't exploiting a loophole, Dummy -- you told us what we could build, and we built it. What loophole?

[Perd Hapley]

Yep -- the ever-present "loophole" argument.

Heck, I exploit legal loopholes every time I drive a car. I don't like getting speeding tickets, so I exploit the loophole that says I can drive within the speed limit and not get a speeding ticket. The geniuses in Washington drew up a list of "evil" features that [certain] rifles weren't allowed to have, then couldn't understand the simple marketplace economics under which the gun manufacturers then simply built rifles without those features.

The only lie was in calling that a "loophole." No, it wasn't exploiting a loophole, Dummy -- you told us what we could build, and we built it. What loophole?

loophole \ˈlüp-ˌhōl\
noun
any of several behaviors which conform to the law; strict observance of legal requirements

[Andiron]

Thanks for the help guys.

and for this

[GigaBuist]

Here's what he keeps referencing:


(30)The term semiautomatic assault weapon means any of the following: (A)The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof: (i)AK, AKM, AKS, AK–47, AK–74, ARM, MAK90, Misr, NHM 90, NHM 91, SA 85, SA 93, VEPR; (ii)AR–10; (iii)AR–15, Bushmaster XM15, Armalite M15, or Olympic Arms PCR....

Your legal scholar is citing text of bills that never passed.  HR 1022 (easy to remember!) from 2007 contained that text but it was never passed.  Here's the full text of that one:  https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/110/hr1022/text  .. Search for XM15 to bring you to the right spot.

Now HR3355 from the 103rd Congress which is where the 1994 AWB actually was contained this:

``(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means--
        ``(A) any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the
    firearms in any caliber, known as--
            ``(i) Norinco, Mitchell, and Poly Technologies Avtomat
        Kalashnikovs (all models);
            ``(ii) Action Arms Israeli Military Industries UZI and
        Galil;
            ``(iii) Beretta Ar70 (SC-70);
            ``(iv) Colt AR-15;
            ``(v) Fabrique National FN/FAL, FN/LAR, and FNC;
            ``(vi) SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12;
            ``(vii) Steyr AUG;
            ``(viii) INTRATEC TEC-9, TEC-DC9 and TEC-22; and
            ``(ix) revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to)
        the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

  Full text here:  https://www.congress.gov/bill/103rd-congress/house-bill/3355/text

That's the only list the actually passed at the federal level.  And as others have noted we were buying AR-15s during the ban.  I picked up one too, a Bushmaster XM15.

You might want to remind them that laws have to actually pass to be on the books and that existing on the web doesn't mean a law actually passed.

[BlueStarLizzard]

They are welcome to come shoot my Bushmaster Dissipater.

IIRC, Dad bought it a couple weeks into the AWB after selling for premo bucks the pre ban model AR he had picked up shortly before the ban was in the works. Actually, he picked up a few things after making that sale.

[French G.]

Two differences  in my pre-ban Colt and the ban era bushy I traded it for. The Colt had a verifiable preban serial number and the flash hider came off. Exact same A2 guns otherwise. One of the few times I got all my money back out of a gun, especially one shot at least 8k times. Bushy + cash for the lower, sold the upper and an original aluminum Colt collapsible stock separately. Impressive deal considering I bought the Colt in October 1994 because of the ban and got royally gouged for it. A good cause, the preban went to NY where the expiration freed no one. And oh yeah, I was not even into guns back then, good job Clinton. :D