Author Topic: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)  (Read 1585 times)

Ben

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Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« on: August 24, 2016, 08:28:01 PM »
I'm sure some vital facts are missing from the story, but some questions for those in the know:

Would it be normal (if say, the last encounter hadn't happened) for a destroyer to alter course to avoid these freakin' Iranian pangas?  I can understand that attempted radio contact would be proper procedure, as well as the horn blasts. However, given the situation appearing to be in international waters, I can't help but think if the last incident didn't happen, the destroyer would have kept on its way, with the idea that a bicycle shouldn't play chicken with a Mack truck.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/08/24/four-iranian-vessels-harass-us-navy-ship-in-strait-hormuz-official-says.html
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2016, 08:57:02 PM »
I was sort of thinking that because the previous incident happened, this time the U.S. destroyer should have maintained course -- and locked and loaded while doing so.
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Scout26

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2016, 10:59:27 PM »
Nothing for Defense and Millions for Tribute !!!!


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Ben

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2016, 11:15:57 PM »
I was sort of thinking that because the previous incident happened, this time the U.S. destroyer should have maintained course -- and locked and loaded while doing so.

That would be my armchair quarterback sensible response. I'm curious if that would be the correct response in a non-Obama Commander in Chief World, or if maybe there really is a valid reason / protocol to back down.
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Scout26

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2016, 11:28:15 PM »
That would be my armchair quarterback sensible response. I'm curious if that would be the correct response in a non-Obama Commander in Chief World, or if maybe there really is a valid reason / protocol to back down.

So Obama doesn't have to go to Tehran and bow before the Ayatollah ?

If Trump would come out and say something to the effect of, "The US Navy alters course for no one.  In a Trump administration, US Navy ships can go 'Weapons Free', if threatened or harassed.  If you refuse to get out of our way, we will blow you out of the water."  I would probably vote for him.
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MillCreek

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2016, 11:44:36 PM »
The problem with this is the next time a US Navy vessel has a 'navigation error' or 'mechanical breakdown' in Iranian waters, we should not be surprised if the Iranians go weapons free on it.
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dogmush

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2016, 07:21:28 AM »
I'm sure some vital facts are missing from the story, but some questions for those in the know:

Would it be normal (if say, the last encounter hadn't happened) for a destroyer to alter course to avoid these freakin' Iranian pangas?  I can understand that attempted radio contact would be proper procedure, as well as the horn blasts. However, given the situation appearing to be in international waters, I can't help but think if the last incident didn't happen, the destroyer would have kept on its way, with the idea that a bicycle shouldn't play chicken with a Mack truck.

Yes, it would be normal to change course.

Quote from:  International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea, 1972, Rule 2
(a). Nothing in these Rules shall exonerate any vessel, or the owner, master or crew thereof, from the consequences of
any neglect to comply with these Rules or of the neglect of any precaution which may be required by the ordinary
practice of seamen, or by the special circumstances of the case.
(b). In construing and complying with these Rules due regard shall be had to all dangers of navigation and collision and
to any special circumstances, including the limitations of the vessels involved, which may make a departure from these
Rules necessary to avoid immediate danger.

Basically it is the responsibility of all ships at sea to avoid collision.  If your vessel hits another, no matter what the circumstances are, you are at least partially at fault, and can be held liable.  This applies to ships of war as well.  So regardless of the Iranian's actions or playing chicken, the captain of the destroyer had a legal responsibility to take action and avoid collision if he deemed risk of collision to exist.

Additionally:
Quote from:  International Regulations for preventing
Collisions at Sea, 1972 - Rule 8 Action to avoid collision
(a). Any action to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances
of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(b). Any alteration of course and/or speed to avoid collision shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be large
enough to be readily apparent to another vessel observing visually or by radar; a succession of small alterations of
course and/or speed should be avoided.
(c). If there is sufficient sea-room, alteration of course alone may be the most effective action to avoid a close-quarters
situation provided that it is made in good time, is substantial and does not result in another close-quarters situation.

He can't just tweak it a couple of degrees to Starboard, he's supposed to make a pretty decent change so that everyone knows he's maneuvering to avoid the collision. 
Depending on exactly where the Iranian's were in relation to the destroyer he he may very well have been required by international law to change course and/or speed.  The relative positions of the two vessels is what determines which vessel has the right of way, and which is burdened.

That's the legal answer.  Functionally, little two bit navies do this all the time, especially in the Persian Gulf and Red Sea.  They feel like they've accomplished something by making a US vessel change course.  It's been happening, daily, since at least 1991.  The Saudi's are actually worse about it.  And, Yes, US military vessels are required to follow the international law and make sure a collision does not occur.  So we go around them.  Completely normal for a Hormuz transit, and not indicative of a change in either countries behavior from the Farsi Island stupidity.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2016, 09:48:57 AM »
The problem with this is the next time a US Navy vessel has a 'navigation error' or 'mechanical breakdown' in Iranian waters, we should not be surprised if the Iranians go weapons free on it.

All the more reason to maintain our ships, and teach our Navy officers to navigate. In fact, I read recently that, in the aftermath of the previous incident, the Navy IS once again teaching navigation (of the sort that doesn't involve total reliance on a GPS).
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dogmush

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2016, 10:03:13 AM »
All the more reason to maintain our ships, and teach our Navy officers to navigate. In fact, I read recently that, in the aftermath of the previous incident, the Navy IS once again teaching navigation (of the sort that doesn't involve total reliance on a GPS).

-ish.

The Navy Craftmaster class (what they need to command a not-ship sized vessel, normally chiefs and O-1/O-2) is taught by the Army at Ft. Eustis.  (At least the east coast one is)  They use our simulators and equipment, but their curriculum.  Having been in and around the graduates of that course I would still call their navigation spotty at best outside visual piloting.

Annapolis did recently reintroduce Celestial Nav.  We'll see how that goes.

Ben

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2016, 10:23:10 AM »

Basically it is the responsibility of all ships at sea to avoid collision.  If your vessel hits another, no matter what the circumstances are, you are at least partially at fault, and can be held liable.  This applies to ships of war as well.  So regardless of the Iranian's actions or playing chicken, the captain of the destroyer had a legal responsibility to take action and avoid collision if he deemed risk of collision to exist.


Interesting that it applies to this kind of harassment, which could lead to potential military incidents as well.  I don't know much about "the rules of the road" beyond common courtesy other than examples like a more maneuverable motor vessel is supposed give way to a sailboat.

Just as a point of conjecture, at what point might a warship say "screw this!"? For example, if the Iranians continually maneuvered to block a course correction?
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dogmush

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2016, 12:16:26 PM »
Realistically speaking the screw this point would also be the open fire point.

The Iranians are trying to get US vessels to lose their temper, hit something, or otherwise be aholes specifically so they can point and say "See! The US is a big meanie." Which is why we very carefully follow international law when near them.

Remember we are not at war with Iran. This is, legally, the same as the New England fishing boat that doesn't turn or answer the radio. And there's a ton of them as well.

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2016, 08:50:09 PM »
The problem with this is the next time a US Navy vessel has a 'navigation error' or 'mechanical breakdown' in Iranian waters, we should not be surprised if the Iranians go weapons free on it.

That didn't go so well for them the last time around...
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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2016, 08:50:25 PM »
So we can't shoot them but can't we just opps and run them over?
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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2016, 11:34:11 PM »
I was sort of thinking that because the previous incident happened, this time the U.S. destroyer should have maintained course -- and locked and loaded while doing so.

What happens when it is a thousand dollar bomb boat hoping the billion dollar DDG plays chicken right into the blast radius?

BobR

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #15 on: August 26, 2016, 08:51:06 AM »
So we can't shoot them but can't we just opps and run them over?

From my discussions with sailors who did Tin Can Duty off the coast of VN it would not be unheard of to "accidentally" cut a sampan or "fishing boat" in half occasionally. Of course all aid and assistance was rendered after the unfortunate accident. After a while the sampans gave particular FFs and DDs a nice wide berth. :)


bob

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Re: Iran - US Vessel Encounter (again)
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2016, 10:49:41 AM »
From my discussions with sailors who did Tin Can Duty off the coast of VN it would not be unheard of to "accidentally" cut a sampan or "fishing boat" in half occasionally. Of course all aid and assistance was rendered after the unfortunate accident. After a while the sampans gave particular FFs and DDs a nice wide berth. :)


bob
Which is exactly why they should give a harsh response and our state department weenies should back them up.  It would put a stop to the nonsense pretty fast.  There just too many out there who will push the limits until someone stops them.
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