ATF backs off of their Arm Brace ruling a little bit.

[dogmush]

It seems that the ATF has reconsidered the question of whether simply touching something to your shoulder "redesigns" it. They've release a new letter to the makers of the Sig Brace saying that as long as you haven't actually changed the brace or it's attachment if you shoulder a Sig Brace equipped pistol you haven't necessarily made an SBR.

Of course they don't say they were wrong, they say the rest of us can't read.  And there's still some grey area around things like extended "pistol brace" buffer tubes.  Does that shoulder on a Phase 5 or KAK tube make the brace a stock, or is it for long forearms?  But it's a step in the right direction.

Full Letter Here

Money quote:

With respect to stabilizing braces, ATF has concluded that attaching the brace to a handgun as a forearm brace does not "make" a short-barreled rifle because in the configuration as submitted to and approved by FATD, it is not intended to be and cannot comfortably be fired from the shoulder. If, however, the shooter/possessor takes affirmative steps to configure the device for use as a shoulder-stock ­for example, configuring the brace so as to permanently affix it to the end of a buffer tube, (thereby creating a length that has no other purpose than to facilitate its use as a stock), removing the arm-strap, or otherwise undermining its ability to be used as a brace - and then in fact shoots the firearm from the shoulder using the accessory as a shoulder stock, that person has objectively "redesigned" the firearm for purposes of the NF A. This conclusion is not based upon the mere fact that the firearm was fired from the shoulder at some point. Therefore, an NF A firearm has not necessarily been made when the device is not re-configured for use as a shoulder stock- even if the attached firearm happens to be fired from the shoulder.

[Hawkmoon]

Where else would a SIG brace attach other than to the end of the buffer tube?

[dogmush]

Where else would a SIG brace attach other than to the end of the buffer tube?

It's designed to slide all the way up and touch receiver end plate.  the first Gen even had a little cut out so the brace would clear the castle nut and still touch the back of the receiver.  5 min and 32 sec after the first one was installed people started putting spacers in to hold the brace farther back.  That way you have a longer LOP and the brace doesn't creep forward under recoil.

There now exists quite a few pistol buffer tubes with steps cast into them to hold a brace an inch or two back from the receiver.

Like so:


Original design:


Spacers in use:


All pics hotlinked from google images.  none are my guns ATF, please don't shoot my dog.

[Devonai]

It never ceases to amaze me how they will pontificate and twist words around rather than just get rid of the stupid SBR restrictions.

[dogmush]

It never ceases to amaze me how they will pontificate and twist words around rather than just get rid of the stupid SBR restrictions.

In their defense the ATF doesn't have the authority to get rid of the SBR restrictions.  They're saddled with the same crappy law we are.

[Pb]

Good news!   

[Fly320s]

In their defense the ATF doesn't have the authority to get rid of the SBR restrictions.  They're saddled with the same crappy law we are.

True, but they do have the authority to not prosecute.

[bedlamite]

True, but they do have the authority to not prosecute.

Which would only last until a D is in charge again.

[BlueStarLizzard]

It never ceases to amaze me how they will pontificate and twist words around rather than just get rid of the stupid SBR restrictions.

Well, maybe all these arm brace shenanigans will get some of there higher ups to annoy the legislature to get rid of the SBR restrictions.

God knows we (gun nuts) have been annoying the *expletive deleted*it out of the ATF over this for them to be about fed up and ready to pass the annoyingness on.

[Frank Castle]

God knows we (gun nuts) have been annoying the *expletive deleted*it out of the ATF over this for them to be about fed up and ready to pass the annoyingness on.

Gun nuts are the masters, of fugly guns! But its funny watching them make guns, that are legal in anti gun states.

[French G.]

Pistol AR I had with no brace was a range lawyer magnet. I could see me running into a know it all who disliked the gun, my explanation of legality, and my generally dismissive demeanor towards idiots taking the opportunity to call Johnny law to come talk to me. And in some localities that wouldn't work well. Yes, no brace and I had numerous people tell me how wrong I was.

Next SBR will have a can, da switch and whatever other pearl clutching devices or I won't bother.

[BlueStarLizzard]

Pistol AR I had with no brace was a range lawyer magnet. I could see me running into a know it all who disliked the gun, my explanation of legality, and my generally dismissive demeanor towards idiots taking the opportunity to call Johnny law to come talk to me. And in some localities that wouldn't work well. Yes, no brace and I had numerous people tell me how wrong I was.

Next SBR will have a can, da switch and whatever other pearl clutching devices or I won't bother.

I need to go to outside ranges more often. I wonder how much pearl clutching I could garner with the KRISS...

[Pb]

You all may want to look at these braces:

http://www.gearheadworks.com/

[dogmush]

Pistol AR I had with no brace was a range lawyer magnet. I could see me running into a know it all who disliked the gun, my explanation of legality, and my generally dismissive demeanor towards idiots taking the opportunity to call Johnny law to come talk to me. And in some localities that wouldn't work well. Yes, no brace and I had numerous people tell me how wrong I was.

Next SBR will have a can, da switch and whatever other pearl clutching devices or I won't bother.

I wonder how much of that is regional.  No one really bothers me about my AR Pistols, even back when I was shooting them from the shoulder.

[French G.]

Worst I had was in my Navy town. Navy E7s know everything and forget civvies don't come with anchors. I try to avoid suggestions of playing a game of hide and go f yourself but if  you read between the lines it is there when I am forced to reply to ignorance.

[cordex]

You all may want to look at these braces:

I've been sorely tempted by this one:
https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/sbpdw/


Of course, at that price I might prefer to just SBR the thing.

That and a binary trigger would just about make MAC's NFA Nutkicker. 

[erictank]

Pistol AR I had with no brace was a range lawyer magnet. I could see me running into a know it all who disliked the gun, my explanation of legality, and my generally dismissive demeanor towards idiots taking the opportunity to call Johnny law to come talk to me. And in some localities that wouldn't work well. Yes, no brace and I had numerous people tell me how wrong I was.

Next SBR will have a can, da switch and whatever other pearl clutching devices or I won't bother.

About to take my suppressed SBR to a carbine class tomorrow.  THOSE people will get it. 

Haven't been to a range with it yet, though I do have copies of the stamps taking up permanent residence in my range bag and e-copies on my phone in PDF.

[dogmush]

I've been sorely tempted by this one:
https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/sbpdw/

That's a cool one.  I'm a fan of Brace'd pistols as faux SBR's, but that's not even really trying to pretend to be a brace. 

I honestly believe that this whole "AR Pistol with something on the back" will end up being the end of SBR's in a couple more years.  As the braces proliferate and come in more styles, there's even less point to a stamp on an AR.

[freakazoid]

That's a cool one.  I'm a fan of Brace'd pistols as faux SBR's, but that's not even really trying to pretend to be a brace. 

I honestly believe that this whole "AR Pistol with something on the back" will end up being the end of SBR's in a couple more years.  As the braces proliferate and come in more styles, there's even less point to a stamp on an AR.

That's what I'm thinking, especially in light of them reversing their ruling on shouldering.

[HankB]

I've been sorely tempted by this one:
https://www.sb-tactical.com/product/sbpdw/


Of course, at that price I might prefer to just SBR the thing.

That and a binary trigger would just about make MAC's NFA Nutkicker. 

If the HPA passes in decent form, there's a suppressed version of something like that in my future. 

[Perd Hapley]

That's a cool one.  I'm a fan of Brace'd pistols...

A brace of pistols? Is it talk like a pirate day?

[dogmush]

A brace of pistols? Is it talk like a pirate day?

No. 

Brace'd pistols:  Pistols that have been braced.  I capitalized and used the apostrophe to convey that I was referring to a particular, proper noun version of "Brace".  That is: the various products discussed in this thread, as opposed to duct taping the buffer tube to your forearm.

[Fly320s]

A brace of pistols? Is it talk like a pirate day?

No, matey.  That be on the 19th of September, you scurvey scoundrel.  Now git yourself brace'd for a floggin.

[Perd Hapley]

Can we get some coffee and a Snickers over to dogmush?