Vehicle Maintenance Vicious Circle

[Ben]

So here's an interesting one, that I really didn't expect from Toyota:

It's time (well, probably a few 1000 miles late on the rear) for me to do the first diff and transfer case oil changes on my 4Runner. I was going to go buy the OEM recommendation and use the called for oils: Toyota 75wt-85 for the diffs, and 75wt for the transfer case. The 75wt doesn't seem to exist, even at the dealership. The 75wt-85 is not available at the dealership. It's available from Amazon for $32/liter. Yes, $32/liter (and it is sold by the liter).

After much researching on the Toyota forums, it appears these "use them or void your warranty!!!" oils are just used at the factory for eeking out a tiny little bit more MPG for CAFE standards. Even the dealers don't use the Toyota oils. The oil they use is apparently some bulk labeled Toyota oil, but made by Mobil, and likely 75wt-90. It looks like most people just end up using Mobil 1 Delvac 75wt-90 for everything and call it good. And the Mobil 1, considered a premium grade, is $40/gal vs the $32/liter for the Toyota oil. If the Toyota 75wt could be purchased, and I bought it and the Toyota diff oil, it would run me something like $250 just for the oil to do it myself. That might be more than the dealer charges for the work.

While I could see the marketing aspect of not selling the "warranty oil" to do-it-yourselfers so that dealerships can charge for the service, the fact that they also don't use it at the dealership is pretty ridiculous from the warranty side. A guy on one of the Toyota forums even called Toyota and went through like a half dozen people who couldn't provide him an answer on the oil. He posted some of their responses which would do a B movie scheister lawyer credit.

Anyway, I kinda thought it was funny, other than the couple of hours I wasted on research and rabbit holes to make sure I was using the right stuff.

[lupinus]

Often the case with fluids. Also with dealerships going off book as far as lubricants. In the fine print it usually states or equivalent or some such language. I use the right type of fluid/lubricant and call it good. Once my free oil changes run out the dealership is usually just glad I'm actually bothering to do them and not using jiffy lube.

The one that really grinds my gears is them doing the upsell. The Ford dealer in particular was bad about that with their Quick Lane thing. It was just as bad as any of the  chain type places (Firestone, Precision, etc) and if I felt like dealing with the upsell BS I'd go to one of those. Is it part of the service intervals? Is it broken and in need or fixing or attention? No? Then *expletive deleted*ck off and do what I came in and asked ya for and what the dudes who designed the thing and who are on the hook for the warranty work specify.

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[dogmush]

If it makes you feel better I had to do Supercharger oil changes on my Cobra twice.  The Motorcraft oil is $26.99/4 oz on Amazon, and about $40/4oz at the dealer.  Comes in 4oz bottles.  You need 9.5 oz.


I'm pleased the tubos on my BMW use engine oil.

[Ben]

If it makes you feel better I had to do Supercharger oil changes on my Cobra twice.  The Motorcraft oil is $26.99/4 oz on Amazon, and about $40/4oz at the dealer.  Comes in 4oz bottles.  You need 9.5 oz.


I'm pleased the tubos on my BMW use engine oil.

Holy crap, that's like liquid gold.

I'm actually not put out by the Mobil 1 price. It'll be like sixty bucks to do both diffs and the transfer case, and it's only something I'll do maybe four times over the period I own the thing. Now that I know, I'll just be on the lookout for a sale on the Mobil 1 sometime before the next change is due.

On the tangent, I had no idea turbos need a special oil changed? I saw nothing about that in my F150 owners manual. I thought they just got oil from the engine?

[dogmush]

Holy crap, that's like liquid gold.

I'm actually not put out by the Mobil 1 price. It'll be like sixty bucks to do both diffs and the transfer case, and it's only something I'll do maybe four times over the period I own the thing. Now that I know, I'll just be on the lookout for a sale on the Mobil 1 sometime before the next change is due.

On the tangent, I had no idea turbos need a special oil changed? I saw nothing about that in my F150 owners manual. I thought they just got oil from the engine?

Supercharger.  Specifically, Positive Displacement Superchargers tend to have self contained oil.

Turbos, and centrifugal blowers, tend to have oil feed and drain lines from the engine's oiling system.  On Turbo's it's because they run a lot hotter then blowers, and the engine oil provides cooling to the bearings.  I don't know why centrifugal blowers tend to use engine oil, but the kits I've seen that's how they do it.

Your EcoBoost F150 almost certainly uses pressurized engine oil feed lines to the turbos.  Which, FWIW, makes oil change intervals that much more important, because turbo bearings at by far a more extreme environment for oil then anything else in the engine, and can cook the hell out of oil.

[Ben]

Ah, thanks for the explanation. I did know (or had read about) the extra potential oil "wear" on the Ecoboosts, hence had already decided to somewhat disregard the OLM and just change the engine oil every 5000 miles. Unlike diff oil, motor oil is cheap (insurance). :)

[Hawkmoon]

The one that really grinds my gears is them doing the upsell. The Ford dealer in particular was bad about that with their Quick Lane thing. It was just as bad as any of the  chain type places (Firestone, Precision, etc) and if I felt like dealing with the upsell BS I'd go to one of those. Is it part of the service intervals? Is it broken and in need or fixing or attention? No? Then *expletive deleted*ck off and do what I came in and asked ya for and what the dudes who designed the thing and who are on the hook for the warranty work specify.

Dealer service is a scam. First off is the flat rate manual. For most routine jobs, even a half decent tech can beat the flat rate time by enough to log 50 to 60 billable hours in a 40-hour work week. The top techs start complaining if they're not getting paid for 70-plus hours in a 40-hour week. Plus, both the tech and the service writer get a commission on any work they can sell. When my brother was service manager at a BMW dealership, he had a lot of trouble getting techs to actually fix what the customer brought the car in for. The first thing they'd do was put the car up on a lift and make a list of the extra work they wanted the service writer to sell for them. And the service writers were happy to go along, because they got a piece of the action on all the upsell work, along with the tech.

[dogmush]

Dealer service is a scam. First off is the flat rate manual. For most routine jobs, even a half decent tech can beat the flat rate time by enough to log 50 to 60 billable hours in a 40-hour work week. The top techs start complaining if they're not getting paid for 70-plus hours in a 40-hour week. Plus, both the tech and the service writer get a commission on any work they can sell. When my brother was service manager at a BMW dealership, he had a lot of trouble getting techs to actually fix what the customer brought the car in for. The first thing they'd do was put the car up on a lift and make a list of the extra work they wanted the service writer to sell for them. And the service writers were happy to go along, because they got a piece of the action on all the upsell work, along with the tech.

Part of that depends on the dealership.  The dealer(s) I go to for my and my wife's car don't upsell me.  If they find something, I go out into the service bay and look at it myself, and can decide what to do from there.  If I decide not to do something there's no hassle.

I wouldn't (and don't) put up with being sold unneeded stuff.

On the flat rate, that's true. That's how good techs make more then bad and/or lazy techs.  I pretty much feel about it the same way I felt when my frinds would question my estimate when I was fixing their car for them.  If you think you can do it faster then my quote, go for it.

[lupinus]

Part of that depends on the dealership.  The dealer(s) I go to for my and my wife's car don't upsell me.  If they find something, I go out into the service bay and look at it myself, and can decide what to do from there.  If I decide not to do something there's no hassle.

I wouldn't (and don't) put up with being sold unneeded stuff.

On the flat rate, that's true. That's how good techs make more then bad and/or lazy techs.  I pretty much feel about it the same way I felt when my frinds would question my estimate when I was fixing their car for them.  If you think you can do it faster then my quote, go for it.

It was weird. I dunno if it's a thing everywhere or just regional or what. But my dealership had two service center, both Ford. One was the normal dealership service shop where they did warranty work, recalls, major repairs, etc. Never tried to upsell me anything and were great the couple times I needed to use then.

Then they had a Quick Lane. Different building but still very much Ford. They were more quick lube, tires, and general repair of other brands. The guys were also great, but lots of upselling and the typical crap of most quick lube/chain shops- additives, flushes, etc. While they were great and not too pushy once ya said no, and I recognize they were just doing their job, it was still annoying on general principal.

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[Ben]

It was weird. I dunno if it's a thing everywhere or just regional or what. But my dealership had two service center, both Ford. One was the normal dealership service shop where they did warranty work, recalls, major repairs, etc. Never tried to upsell me anything and were great the couple times I needed to use then.

I may very well be paranoid, but I don't trust the quick lane. While I change the oil on my F150 myself, the 4Runner is kind of a hassle, so I take it in. The people who own the Toyota Dealership also own Ford and another three or four dealerships in town and have a common quick lane. I can't help but think it's staffed by trainees before they move on to the various dealerships, so I pay a little more and just make an appointment at the regular Toyota service lane.

Heck, even then from what I can tell when I do it, they have never once lubed any of my zerks during the oil change.

[K Frame]

Talk to Mtnbkr about what oil he uses in his 4Runner. I know that he replaces it regularly.

[Boomhauer]

No dealership service is not a scam. Yes I make a list of what needs to be addressed either now or in the near future. Its called making money and making the customer aware

Flat rate (no I don't work it as a shop that pays that way) is not a scam to you.  It gives you an up front known cost and if a mechanic can beat it and still do a proper job good for them. I beat standard job times on some stuff and the dealer makes more money. Big whoop. Let me show you the tools I have brought to make jobs faster and let me show you what a car mechanic has to buy to be fast and then let's see if it's still the deal you think it is too. Also mechanics get screwed on warranty times (which is often half of what a customer pay job is) plus if something goes wrong and the job goes over time or there is rework the mechanic eats it.

 The knowledge and skill I have to have to do my job is far more than you have any idea of, also. I'm just glad I don't deal with the idiots in the general population who don't get that proper diagnosis of an issue is far more than plugging a computer in.

Nobody holds a gun to your head to accept recommended repairs. Feel free to decline them, I have customers that do it all the time and I'm not offended. But don't come back bitching when I told you something was about to go and you didn't want to spend a little at the time and then get pissy when it breaks and costs you a lot more than the original work I recommended.

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[KD5NRH]

The Motorcraft oil is $26.99/4 oz on Amazon, and about $40/4oz at the dealer.

Yes, but you gave meaning to the life of the guy at Motorcraft who carefully decants it from the 5 quart Traveler jugs into the little four ounce bottles.

[Ben]

The local Walmart did not have the Mobil 1 in stock, so I ordered it off Amazon. Only I'm not sure how I'm supposed to get this stuff into the differentials. Any ideas?

[dogmush]

gear oil pump.

Although, be warned Mobil 1 uses non standard threads on their quart bottles, so instead of being able to screw the pump on, you have to hold it.  (I duct tap it on)

Those will also be sold at your local Autozone/Advance/Pep Boys/Napa.

[Ben]

gear oil pump.

Although, be warned Mobil 1 uses non standard threads on their quart bottles, so instead of being able to screw the pump on, you have to hold it.  (I duct tap it on)

Those will also be sold at your local Autozone/Advance/Pep Boys/Napa.

I should have used the "laughing" emoticon in my post. Look at the picture of what Amazon is sending me.  

FTR, I have the pump. Although thanks for the tip on the threads - I did not know that. :)

[p12]

No dealership service is not a scam. Yes I make a list of what needs to be addressed either now or in the near future. Its called making money and making the customer aware

Flat rate (no I don't work it as a shop that pays that way) is not a scam to you.  It gives you an up front known cost and if a mechanic can beat it and still do a proper job good for them. I beat standard job times on some stuff and the dealer makes more money. Big whoop. Let me show you the tools I have brought to make jobs faster and let me show you what a car mechanic has to buy to be fast and then let's see if it's still the deal you think it is too. Also mechanics get screwed on warranty times (which is often half of what a customer pay job is) plus if something goes wrong and the job goes over time or there is rework the mechanic eats it.

 The knowledge and skill I have to have to do my job is far more than you have any idea of, also. I'm just glad I don't deal with the idiots in the general population who don't get that proper diagnosis of an issue is far more than plugging a computer in.

Nobody holds a gun to your head to accept recommended repairs. Feel free to decline them, I have customers that do it all the time and I'm not offended. But don't come back bitching when I told you something was about to go and you didn't want to spend a little at the time and then get pissy when it breaks and costs you a lot more than the original work I recommended.

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DITTO

As a service advisor or manager of a dealership service department we are not doing our jobs if we don’t make recommendations to keep our customers safe and protect their vehicle investment. The owner has every right to decline any or all repairs. No hard feelings.

The last customer that bitched at me for making maintenance recommendations was answered appropriately. He still comes in but keeps his damn opinion to himself.  And if I see his body language going where it doesn’t need to go I just state that it’s a yes or no recommendation.


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[Ben]

I've only had an attempt at a "force feed" once, at one particular Ford dealership involving the bedpan in my previous diesel truck, which would have been around a $5000 bill for a single gasket.

My previous Ford dealership, as well as both the Toyota dealerships I've used have been really good about "Just bringing it to your attention - your choice."

Sure, the Toyota guy wanted to put a new cabin air filter in for me (literally an <2 min job for me). On the other hand, they've been fine when I said I would do some maintenance myself, to the point that they would give me info on torque specs and stuff, just to be helpful.

I'm sure there are people who simply won't change their own air or cabin filters (and some of the latter, like on my F150, are a total pain), or even look at them to see if they are dirty, so I can totally see the service advisors bringing that stuff up. I simply tell them "I've got it" and they are fine with that.

[Ben]

Just got around to doing this. Well, just the rear today because it was getting hot and I was getting lazy. As usual, there's always gotta be a little thing(s) that pops up. In this case, I took a good bit more fluid than called for in my instructions - I think easily 1/2qt. I got nervous and did the googles and found many others had the same thing happen, so no worries and noted for next time. Also, my freakin' torque wrench would not fit where I needed it for the fill bolt (well, maybe if I'd removed the spare tire and hooked up an angle extension*) so I just guestimated the 36 ft lbs. It uses a crush washer, so I should be good.

Good things were that unlike all the warnings I read, the fill bolt actually came off without too much hernia-inducing strain or any rednecked breaker bars, and most surprisingly, the oil came out looking almost new. All the posts I had read on the Toyota forums talked about how dirty the rear diff oil gets in 4Runners, even when changed at 15K miles (I did it at 36K). There was a good layer of metal sludge on the magnetic bolt, but otherwise I was really surprised at how good the oil looked.

Also, Dogmush - thanks for the duct tape tip.


*My understanding is that when you start doing extensions, reducers (I was going from the 3/8 drive wrench to a 1/2" drive socket) etc., it will mess with the actual torque measurements.

[Boomhauer]

It’s changing angles and lengths horizontally away from the drive tang (ie a crows foot ) that changes it. Normal extensions held straight on no problem

[French G.]

It’s changing angles and lengths horizontally away from the drive tang (ie a crows foot ) that changes it. Normal extensions held straight on no problem

Yes, as aviation QA I have had this argument loud and long with maintainers, other QA, and senior peeps. "Show me the math" usually devolves into show me veins popping out of your forehead. Guess they suck at math. We use a lot of dog bones and crows feet, so it is important to know.

[Fly320s]

This thread should be "Vehicle maintenance viscous circle."