Author Topic: hypothetical for our electrical experts  (Read 558 times)

brimic

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hypothetical for our electrical experts
« on: November 12, 2018, 11:14:09 AM »
A buddy of mine manages a machine shop- I was over there having a few beers with him saturday night as he was showing me some of his brand new Swiss lathes and vertical machining centers.

While over there, he mentioned that he had a few bridgeport mills they are trying to get rid of... something along the lines of $500/ea, one was sold already, and the second came with another of their canabalized for parts mills.
Also in the mix was a wilton grinder, which I really wanted- he told me I could probably have it for $50.

The problem is that they are all 3-phase.
The other problem is that my backyard shop is wired with a single 110 line, and likely wasn't wired correctly to start with at that.

He mentioned that they could be run on a VFD.

This is all new to me...

Theorectically, could I run 2 x 110 lines out to my shop to run a VFD to run 3-phase motors?
Would I need a seperate VFD for each motor?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2018, 11:48:30 AM »
I have no answer on the VFD -- don't know anything about them. As to running a second 110-volt (actually, probably 120-volt) line to the shop -- if you're going to run a new line, why not do it right and run a new 240-volt line, and install a sub-panel in the shop? The 110-volt line you have probably isn't heavy enough to handle any industrial-size machines anyway.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2018, 11:57:55 AM »
Your 120 line right now is probably 20 amps only, maybe even 15 amps.

Running 2x120 in series to get 220 will still only yield 220 @ 15-20 amps.  You can double the voltage in series, or double the amperage in parallel.  But not both.  At least according to Ohm's Law.  When that comes to applied A/C electricity, you may have additional restrictions.  I'm not an electrician, just a screwabout with DC electrical stuff and a hobbyist welder that went through similar to get my Lincoln 210MP working in my shop in 220.  Most machines needing 220 volt power also want to draw higher amperage.  You'll probably need 220 @ 30 amps minimum, and realistically would benefit from a 220 @ 50 amp circuit.

I had an electrician friend of mine come out and rewire my main breaker box, as well as my shop's subpanel, to ensure everything was up to snuff and ready for the challenge.
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dogmush

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2018, 12:23:46 PM »
You have a couple options.  All of them start with running enough single phase 220VAC to run these machines.  A Bridgeport is usually 2-4 HP and normally needs a dedicated 15-20 amp feed to cover startup.  Plus whatever else you might have running.  Plus cool new tools you'll decide you need.

240VAC 50 Amps is kinda the min for a machine shop.

Then you can do a couple things.

1. You can put a single phase motor on the machine.  Depending on motor size, casing, and your cragslist skilz this is sometimes the cheapest solution.  Also depends on how the existing motor is.  If it's already kinda worn out, then sometimes it makes sense to swap for s single phase.  I helped a buddy do this on a Monarch Lathe last year.

2. You can run a VFD.  You would need one per machine usually.  (You could get one big honking one and wire several machines, but it's not ideal).  THis is nice because it adds variable speeds to a machine that probably only has step pulleys.  Nice feature.  Something like so: Cheap Chinese VFD
Be aware that the chinese VFD's are overrated, so buy about 150% of the size you think you'll need for the machine.

3. You can get (or build) a rotary Phase converter use it to feed 3 phase to all your machines.  Video on phase converter  I know a guy that has a huge one of these in the cieling of his garage and feeds a Haas CNC, as well as two lathes and a Bridgeport.  You will need a big honking motor though.

4. If you think you might be getting into using a bunch of three phase, you can have the electrical company just bring three phase to your shop.  My boss did this in his garage, and it wasn't free, but it was under a grand, and he has all the power he needs.  I am jealous.

Try and plan for the future, though.  There is nothing worse then getting something all set up, and finding a deal on a new machine that necessitates rebuilding your infrastructure.   FWIW, VFD's are the cheap and easy route, but you will lose some amperage through them.

Brad Johnson

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2018, 12:29:57 PM »
Rotary phase converter.

Brad
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brimic

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2018, 12:45:30 PM »
Rotary phase converter +220 sounds like the ticket. Thanks!
I'm upragrading my home panel to 200 AMP this winter anyway, so I think I'll consider running 220 to my barn/shop right away for future projects.
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tokugawa

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2018, 01:38:20 AM »
Put in at least a 100 amp sub panel.  A 10 hp rotary PC and a 50 amp welder outlet.  Nice thing about a rotary is many motors can be run simultaneously. like a spindle, coolant pump, feed on a mill.  Nice thing about an inverter is speed control, but IIRC they do best with one motor at a time.

MikeB

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2018, 05:34:03 AM »
A buddy of mine manages a machine shop- I was over there having a few beers with him saturday night as he was showing me some of his brand new Swiss lathes and vertical machining centers.

While over there, he mentioned that he had a few bridgeport mills they are trying to get rid of... something along the lines of $500/ea, one was sold already, and the second came with another of their canabalized for parts mills.
Also in the mix was a wilton grinder, which I really wanted- he told me I could probably have it for $50.

The problem is that they are all 3-phase.
The other problem is that my backyard shop is wired with a single 110 line, and likely wasn't wired correctly to start with at that.

He mentioned that they could be run on a VFD.

This is all new to me...

Theorectically, could I run 2 x 110 lines out to my shop to run a VFD to run 3-phase motors?
Would I need a seperate VFD for each motor?

How far away is your backyard shop? Running a 240 line would reduce potential voltage drop vs. running a second 110/120 lines and combining them.

I helped a friend with wiring lighting to her riding ring and dealt with sort of the opposite of your situation, she needed 120 for the lights, but we were able to substantially reduce the voltage drop by running 240 out to the ring and then splitting it into two 120 lines from there. If we had just run 120 lines the voltage drop would have been significant when it got to the last lights in the run, by using 240 for more than half the distance we reduced the drop significantly to the point it was did not affect the output of the end of the run lights. You don't want to have the voltage too end up being too low starting up motors.

brimic

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2018, 09:03:52 AM »
Quote
How far away is your backyard shop? Running a 240 line would reduce potential voltage drop vs. running a second 110/120 lines and combining them.

It's 150 +/- a few feet from my service panel in my basement.
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MikeB

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Re: hypothetical for our electrical experts
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2018, 09:33:29 AM »
It's 150 +/- a few feet from my service panel in my basement.

That’s not too bad. Even using 12 gauge copper you are only looking at about 8% if you were pulling 20 amps over a 120, but for reference if would be only 4% over 240. Just wanted to throw that out. People often forget voltage drop when running long electrical runs or extension cords. The bigger the wire and higher the voltage the less it drops.

Personally I’d run 240 if you can. Also if you ever want to feed from a generator you can put it out at the workshop and reduce noise close to the house assuming a generator that can do 240, well you can with 120 too, but dryers, many heaters, well pumps, etc. usually want 240 and if you have the wiring already in place it works well.

Handy drop calculator here: https://www.calculator.net/voltage-drop-calculator.html/