When the Nazis took Manhattan

[MillCreek]

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190220&fbclid=IwAR0HvSq25bSnmZfuqQPzgkB4nh3_cskF0aenEIsPuFWaeRYDnTGK-Ml2JGM

https://anightatthegarden.com/

To this day, I wonder why there was wide-spread rounding up of the Japanese Americans on the West Coast, and only relatively few individually selected German Americans were detained on the East Coast.

https://encyclopedia.densho.org/German_and_Italian_detainees/

[makattak]

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_content=20190220&fbclid=IwAR0HvSq25bSnmZfuqQPzgkB4nh3_cskF0aenEIsPuFWaeRYDnTGK-Ml2JGM

https://anightatthegarden.com/

To this day, I wonder why there was wide-spread rounding up of the Japanese Americans on the West Coast, and only relatively few individually selected German Americans were detained on the East Coast.

https://encyclopedia.densho.org/German_and_Italian_detainees/

If I had to guess, the easier time separating those of Japanese descent from "normal" Americans and horror at the betrayal and attacks that Americans of Japanese descent did to aid a downed Japanese pilot in Hawaii after Pearl Harbor.

The "Niihau Iincident" likely played into American's fears especially after the shock of Pearl Harbor itself.

[Ron]

German folks have been in the USA from the beginning, they are part of the founding stock of the American people.

German was a commonly spoken language in their communities.

Weeding out new Germans, old Germans and figuring out who is on who’s side would have been very difficult.

[230RN]

I believe it was shown in "Total War: The Story of World War II" by Peter Calvocoressi and Guy Wint, that it was pretty well known that many Japanese were reporting on shipping and cargo movements on the coasts.  (Shipping information has always been a valuable source of intelligence.)  A major difficulty was gathering evidence on individuals because of the language problem.

In Makattak's link on the Niihau Incident, we find:

Repercussions

Historian Gordon Prange notes that it was "the rapidity with which the three resident Japanese went over to the pilot's cause" which troubled the Hawaiians. "The more pessimistic among them cited the Niʻihau incident as proof that no one could trust any Japanese, even if an American citizen, not to go over to Japan if it appeared expedient."[13]

This was not necessarily the case on the east coast, where German was a secondary language to many and Germans were well-meshed with American Culture. (At one point in the Founding Process, there was some debate as to whether English or German should be our official language.) (See http://www.armedpolitesociety.com/index.php?topic=59533.msg1198598#msg1198598 for correction.)

So while no doubt there was spying going on and there was general suspicion of loyalty, Germany was not particularly known for duplicitous diplomacy.  (Pearl Harbor was not Japan's first "sneak attack."  See Russo-Japanese War.)

So that's why.  Our own counter-spying was more effective with Germans than with the Japanese, we could pinpoint individuals, and we could enlist German spies as <ahem> "trustworthy" double agents.

(ETA: Ron pointed out some of this while I was typing this, so thanks, Ron.)

Terry, 230RN

[MechAg94]

Thanks for posting about the Niihau incident.  I have never heard of it or the known spying.  That explains the reasoning for the internment a little better.  I don't remember that ever covered in anything I ever saw on the Japanese internment.  Maybe I missed it. 

[230RN]

Well there's always been a big conflict over it:  "imprisoning" a group of people without "due process," versus "how many sailors and merchant seamen's lives would be saved by cutting off the information leaks?"

The debate goes on, but it didn't help the Japs in America by not assimilating into American Culture, and by having a history of, as I put it, "disingenuous diplomacy and previous sneak attacks*."

So to be fair, I can't fault the PC historians and the media for treading lightly over this subject, and in fact I bet I'll get bitched at for using the term "Japs."

Terry, 230RN

* Not that other countries haven't done that, too, but the attack on Pearl Harbor really pissed us off, "personally," as it were.

REF:
https://brilliantmaps.com/russo-japanese-war/

The praise Japan received for the daring surprise attack on Port Arthur, would have tragic consequences when Japan attempted a similar move against the United States.

[TommyGunn]

At the advent of war,  after December 7th,  1941,  the German American "Nazi"  movement became  very unpopular,  and many participants disbanded, feeling greater loyalty to America than to Hitler.
There was also some fear of becoming targets of hate from fellow non-German Americans.
Plus,  reasons earlier posters have commented on.

[WLJ]

The "Niihau Iincident" likely played into American's fears especially after the shock of Pearl Harbor itself.

Remember reading about this in either Walter Lord's Day of Infamy or John Toland's The Rising Sun: The Decline & Fall of the Japanese Empire or both, it's been a while since I've read either.
Always find it a bit odd that Niihau was supposedly designated as a landing site for damaged aircraft by the IJN considering it's distance and direction from PH. Niihau is to the WNW of PH while the Japanese Fleet was positioned almost due N. Add to this the fact that as far as I know there is no record of the Japanese checking the island for downed crew  

[Perd Hapley]

At one point in the Founding Process, there was some debate as to whether English or German should be our official language.

I think I can safely say there was no such debate, unless the Hessians were planning to take over the colonies from both the Brits and the Americans.

From what I've read, the white population of the 13 original states was overwhelmingly of British stock.

So while no doubt there was spying going on and there was general suspicion of loyalty, Germany was not known for duplicitous diplomacy.  (Pearl Harbor was not Japan's first "sneak attack."  See Russo-Japanese War.)

A war the Japanese won, by the way. They weren't exactly an enemy we could just laugh off.

[Ron]

Ben Franklin was particularly concerned about the influx of Germans and wrote and published an anti immigration tract.

It’s available for free online.

[BlueStarLizzard]

German folks have been in the USA from the beginning, they are part of the founding stock of the American people.

German was a commonly spoken language in their communities.

Weeding out new Germans, old Germans and figuring out who is on who’s side would have been very difficult.

I would also point out that in the wake of WWI, German American's were not very popular and many with German ancestry did whatever they could to hide their origins, including changing names.

[MechAg94]

I would also point out that in the wake of WWI, German American's were not very popular and many with German ancestry did whatever they could to hide their origins, including changing names.

I guess it depends on where they were.  Lots of people of German ancestry in Texas.  Apparently, my great grandparents spoke German around the house.

[230RN]

Ooops.  I guess maybe I fell victim to an "urban legend."

German as the official US language myth[edit]

An urban legend, sometimes called the Muhlenberg legend after Frederick Muhlenberg, states that English only narrowly defeated German as the U.S. official language. In reality, the proposal involved a requirement that government documents be translated into German.[21][22] The United States has no statutory official language; English has been used on a de facto basis, owing to its status as the country's predominant language[23].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language_in_the_United_States

In 1794, during Muhlenberg's second tenure as Speaker, the House voted 42-41 against a proposal to translate some of the laws into German. Muhlenberg, who himself abstained from the vote, commented later, "the faster the Germans become Americans, the better it will be."[6] Despite not having voted against the bill, a legend called the Muhlenberg Legend developed in which he was responsible for prohibiting German as an official language of the United States.[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Muhlenberg

Thanks for pointing this out, fistful.

I was wrong once before, ten-fifteen years ago.  I cite that as proof that I am actually human.  Now I have even more proof.

Terry, 230RN

[Ron]

I can no longer locate Franklins tract against German immigration.

Found a lot of editorials about him and his stance but no source of the original.

It’s been memory holed for all practical purposes.

[French G.]

So the NPR piece is because the referenced film is up for an Oscar. Largely forgotten? No, pretty easy to find if you read. Film made in 2017 because Trump. NPR piece is one big NPC dog whistle.

Let's forget Obama's ridiculous rallies of Nuremberg. Just Trump. Orange man bad.

[Regolith]

Every time we go up to the cemetery for Memorial Day, my dad points out the "spy house".

It's a little old out of the way turn-of-the-century farmhouse a couple of miles from here. Apparently there were three or four bachelors with German accents living there during the war, and the locals decided that they must be spies. They were fixin' to have themselves an old fashioned lynching when some feds caught wind of it, and ended up arresting the Germans before the mob could show up.

There are several towns around here that had majority German speakers right up until WWII, so it's probable that they were innocent, and that they just happened to have bought a house a bit further away from the German-speaking enclaves than was advisable.

Then again, the Portland Navy shipyards weren't too far from here, and the Umatilla Army Depot was less than a day's drive away even then, and a little out of the way farmhouse wouldn't be a bad spot for a safe house, so long as you weren't careless and made the neighbors suspicious...

[HankB]

. . . To this day, I wonder why there was wide-spread rounding up of the Japanese Americans on the West Coast, and only relatively few individually selected German Americans were detained on the East Coast . . .

Orientals weren't really trusted back then. Plus, the sneak attack on Pearl Harbor had a lot to do with our reaction, as it reinforced the perception that Orientals were sneaky.

On the other hand, if flights of Messerschmidts and Heinkels had leveled some of our East Coast ports in a sneak attack by Hitler, things might have gone differently for Americans of German origin or descent. As it was, Hitler actually declared war formally on the USA before opening hostilities with us.