Another Welding Question

[Ben]

Do I need a stick arc welder?

I have a little Hobart Handler 140, which has been doing fine for the little jobs and farting around I had been doing. I've only used flux core wire as nothing I've welded needed to be pretty, and most if it has been done outside in the wind, etc. where shielding gas doesn't do well.

I now seem to be identifying more welding projects, most farm oriented. For instance, I mentioned in my other thread I was repairing a trailer. It was a derelict the previous owner left, but I figured I could get it going again. It looks home built, and for whatever reason, he used a mix of 1/4" and 1/8" steel. The 1/4" is the max for the 140, and I had to run multiple beads there, plus max out the duty cycle.

I guess I could probably keep getting by with the 140, however my local Tractor Supply, for whatever reason, has a $550 online price Hobart AC/DC Stickmate on sale for $350. This is apparently the equivalent to the $600 Lincoln AC/DC tombstone machine. I'm wondering if some of you pros can tell me if I'll gain significantly by getting that, or if it's not going to do much more than the Handler 140 for someone who's not welding every day or every week for that matter.

The good thing about the 140 is that I can run it on my 7500 watt generator, where apparently the Stickmate requires an 11,000 watt generator with a 50amp breaker. I think most of any "field welding" I do will involve cattle gates and the like, so we're talking ~1/8" steel that the 140 easily handles, and things like tractor implements can be easily moved to my shop, where I can plug in the Stickmate.

So I'm basically wondering if this $350 deal is something worth jumping on.

[dogmush]

I probably wouldn't.  If you find yourself running out of the capacity of the 140, if it were me, I'd buy one of the newer AC/DC inverter TIGs.  More expensive for sure, but you can weld stick with them, and if you start to get serious, you can put on a TIG torch and get real.  If I had it to do over, I'd have gotten the stick/TIG first, and skipped the MIG.  I almost never use it any more.  Everything is either my Harbor Freight flux core wire feed, or TIG.

A halfway decent hobby grade, Chinese made AC/DC TIG will set you back $800-$1000, plus a tank, and probably a decent torch.  But will be pretty capable, and let you melt aluminum parts into scrap slag in your shop.

[lupinus]

One thing of note for the cheaper tigs that can run stick, is that they don't run certain electrodes well if at all. Odds are you'd be fine, but something worth considering.

As to the welder in question, I'd say that's a good price and worth picking up unless you're just really stretching based on this particular job and not wanting to lay out the cash for it right now.

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[Ben]

Well, I've got time to think about it. I had other stuff to do there today, so looked at the Stickmate at my Tractor Supply this morning. They didn't have a lot of info at the store, so I hit my phone to go over specs again. Initially showed the $350 price,  then auto refreshed and gave me a $699 price. The sticker at the store was still the $550. Employees didn't know what to tell me, other than they couldn't honor the $350. I just got home, went online, and I'm back to seeing the "buy now at this store for $350" price. Almost considering buying it for no other reason than to resell it for $400. 

I don't know much about TIG. My concern would be the price versus how much I'd use it, plus any learning curve. Again, not having all information, I'd almost be more inclined to put a few hundred more than the TIG machine would cost into a welder/generator that I could haul around the property. Got some thinking to do anyways... :)

[zahc]

This is what I have. I love it. I don't even want to upgrade because it's basically perfect.

DEKOPRO 110/220V MMA Welder,160A ARC Welder Machine IGBT Digital Display LCD Hot Start Welder with Electrode Holder,Work Clamp, Input Power Adapter Cable and Brush https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07NWFB2S9/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_vD-yEb81FM06M

[Kingcreek]

That’s a good SMAW machine and a great price. Stick is versatile, change rod and settings and go.
I like my mig (110v) for small stuff and sometimes tacking stuff but I use my Miller SMAW for bigger stuff. I have fabricated or modified or repaired a lot of farm stuff, like attachments for my tractor trailers log splitter etc
If it’s painted and rusty I just grab some 6013 and burn it in.

[Ben]

I just saw that the stickmate has a TIG conversion kit for what they call "scratch start" TIG. Would that make it more versatile, or is it simply not the same as a real TIG rig?

If it’s painted and rusty I just grab some 6013 and burn it in.

That's a big plus given projects I'm identifying, since it's all painted and/or rusty, and none of it needs to look purty. :)

I'm getting really, really tempted to buy this thing at that (possibly a mistake?) $350 price while the website lets me. I'm not seeing it for less than $500 anywhere. Seems like I could sell it for just about what  I bought it for if it doesn't work out for me.

[Kingcreek]

If some of your work is rusty crusty or painted, you can either grind it nice and clean or burn stick. If you wait much longer your deal won’t be there.
See how easy it is to spend somebody else’s money?
And once you have the machine, consumables (rods) are cheap and readily available anywhere. The last box I bought was on sale for $14. If it comes with cables clamp and a stinger all you need is power and rods and maybe a chipping tool if you don’t already have one. You already did something about a good helmet right?

[Ben]

If some of your work is rusty crusty or painted, you can either grind it nice and clean or burn stick. If you wait much longer your deal won’t be there.
See how easy it is to spend somebody else’s money?
And once you have the machine, consumables (rods) are cheap and readily available anywhere. The last box I bought was on sale for $14. If it comes with cables clamp and a stinger all you need is power and rods and maybe a chipping tool if you don’t already have one. You already did something about a good helmet right?

With the 140, I've been pretty meticulous about a clean surface for the weld. For some of the stuff around here that just needs to be redneck fixed and doesn't have to look nice, the stick welder could then sure save time, plus it appears for 1/4" and under it has a 100% duty cycle. I've got it sitting in my online shopping cart right now. If it's still there at that price just before I hit the rack tonight, I might just do it. Used ones seem to sell for $200-$400 so looking from all angles, I just don't see how I take a big hit if it doesn't work for me.

Yeah, on the helmet, I cried once and went with the ESAB.  I was gonna update that thread but might as well say it here: WELL worth the money. I can't believe how much more I can see compared to the other two I have. There is a really significant difference. Also the helmet covers well, and the headgear is just outstanding regarding adjustments and comfort. The "grind" button on the outside is kinda nice too - quick and easy way to go to grind mode and then straight back to the last shade setting. I think the only downside is that the curved lens cover is going to scratch easy, but replacements are $15 for five, so I can live with that.

[Jim147]

Used buzz boxes used to be cheap around here. Haven't look in a while.

[AZRedhawk44]

I'd say to spend the money on strippers-n-blow, and a decent cordless grinder if you don't already have one.

Next time a cruddy job comes up, take the cordless grinder to it to clean it up, and use your existing Hobart machine.

I have a Lincoln 210MP and an Everlast PowerTIG 185.  Ever since getting the TIG machine I haven't used the MIG machine.  Yeah, the 210MP can do DC TIG, but I needed AC TIG for aluminum.

Both can supposedly do stick.  I've tried stick on the Lincoln, didn't like it at all.  I've yet to try stick on the Everlast.

I'm not a particularly good welder, but I don't like changing between machines.  I've used a friend's Lincoln 180, another HF somethingorother flux core setup, a Miller MIG machine, and my two machines I own.  Each machine is really different.  I'm planning on getting rid of my 210MP and only having the Everlast.  It's just too much to keep up on, the preferences of multiple machines.

[Ben]

Don't know if it means anything, but was googling, and this cheap price might be because Miller and Hobart (same thing) have discontinued all their transformer welders. The two new model stick welders appear to be AC only?

Oh, and now made in China. The transformers, as is my 140, are USA made.

[Boomhauer]

I have that welder it’s a very solid one and you can DC tig for steel with a tig whip and an argon bottle

[Ben]

Okay, further reading indicates manufacturers are discontinuing the transformer units due to the EPA and green initiatives. That just put a big check mark in the "pro" column on whether to buy it or not.

[Ben]

Well, it's the next day, and I haven't pulled the trigger yet. I went down the interwebz rabbit holes last night and I'm apparently a dinosaur regarding my limited knowledge of modern welders. Regarding modern stick welders, I'm picking up two analogy vibes on transformer vs inverter:

Invalid: "Hey man, never buy a new car - always buy one from the 70s that you can work on in your backyard. New cars are crap!"

Potentially valid: "Find yourself a pre-Tier4 tractor, because you're going to regret the problems from all those electronics going haywire." I have a Tier4 tractor, so via experience, this is a valid concern to me.

Also regarding inverter welders, I'm seeing a trend that it doesn't make sense to buy a name brand (e.g., Miller) made in China. The only difference between them and the link zahc posted seems to be the name and the 3X price.

So on day 2 I'm kinda back to the drawing board. I'm pretty sure I still want a stick welder for the thicker, rusty, painted farm implement metal and stuff so I can do >1/4" if I need to without a bunch of passes and waiting around for duty cycles. And frankly, just to get back into stick welding to see if I can still even do it. :)

I'm now just looking at pros and cons. From what I'm gathering so far (I'm still barely into the learning curve):

Transformer: Pros - bullet proof, made in USA, well-tested simple tech (same as I learned on in welding class in the early 80s) that will handle the stuff I need it to handle, with (from what I can see) easy arc starts (in DC). Cons - heavy and you need that 50amp breaker, which makes field stuff difficult (for me).

Inverter: Pros - Lightweight and portable, cheap*, need way less power (though 220v is still recommended over 110?) and have some kind of "hot start" tech for supposedly easy arc starts. Cons - somewhat delicate electronics that can haywire on you, especially if they're bumped around a lot in the field. People seem to say that you should expect to replace the thing in a few years versus a transformer welder outliving you.

*Really cheap and ubiquitous  I guess, to the point that it's hard to separate the wheat from the chaff at the same price point? Again, my reading indicates there's not much difference between a $500 Miller inverter and a $200 "othername" inverter, depending on the "other name". For instance, I've  read to avoid HF Chicago Electric, but any of their other cheaper inverter stick welders are as good as a brand name.

[lupinus]

Yes. 110 is good for being handy, but you want 220 whenever possible. Both from the power advantage, and on 110 you may be popping breakers constantly.

And yes pretty much on the Miller etc vs cheaper brands. Untill you get into high end machines there's often no point, and in some ways they're actually "cheaper" than the non-big brands. I've heard good things about Everlast, and actually surprisingly good things about the Vulcan line at HF. Just again, keep in mind that many inverter machines have trouble with some rods, iirc 6010 in particular can be a royal bitch. Duty cycle is also a hugely important number to look at on inverter machines as it can vary wildly.

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[Ben]

Yes. 110 is good for being handy, but you want 220 whenever possible. Both from the power advantage, and on 110 you may be popping breakers constantly.

And yes pretty much on the Miller etc vs cheaper brands. Untill you get into high end machines there's often no point, and in some ways they're actually "cheaper" than the non-big brands. I've heard good things about Everlast, and actually surprisingly good things about the Vulcan line at HF. Just again, keep in mind that many inverter machines have trouble with some rods, iirc 6010 in particular can be a royal bitch. Duty cycle is also a hugely important number to look at on inverter machines as it can vary wildly.

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In some ways (and I realize I'm getting incredibly wishy washy the more I delve in) it would almost make sense to look at either the transformer stick welder or the multi-process machines Dogmush mentioned, which would give me the TIG option down the road if I ever decided to try it. Though I'm not sure that I could justify the $1000 for the projects I have. I see some of them include a plasma cutter, which could make it worthwhile. I have a bunch of stuff I've had to cut that won't go into my chop saw or let me get a grinder cutoff blade to it. I've been using a reciprocating saw with a metal blade and even a plain old hacksaw.

[dogmush]

It's worth pointing out that the inverter machines tend  to be dual voltage in this price range. So 110 or 240. Obviously they aren't as powerful on 110, but you can use the same machine one a 110 circuit generator,  and if you need more heat drag the whole project into the shop and plug into the 50A 240.

I reiterate though: the first time you need to fix something that's not steel, you'll wish you had an AC/DC TIG.

[French G.]

Sounds to me like you don't need TIG for much, don't get it. Scratch start is still real TIG, just lets you do it on welders without a hi-freq box. Welded with a 110V Miller suitcase all this week on structural stuff and it got it done.

What it sounds like you really need is not what you're asking about but an engine driven rig so you can be wherever and weld. I don't know what the used market is like, new is impossible. I have a kohler powered 40 year old Lincoln that is AC only stick, it welds just fine, way smaller than your typical engine powered machine now.

I don't have much good to say about small MIG machines but I have used them to do things that had to hold. Prep your joints well, clean between passes and lots of stringers.

[Ben]

I reiterate though: the first time you need to fix something that's not steel, you'll wish you had an AC/DC TIG.

What's the learning curve for TIG for someone who's a crappy flux core welder? Any examples of what to look for in the machine? Are we talking something simllar to the Vulcan Omni-Pro or the Vulcan ProTIG (as examples)?


https://www.harborfreight.com/protig-165-industrial-welder-with-120240-volt-input-63618.html
https://www.harborfreight.com/omnipro-220-industrial-multiprocess-welder-with-120240-volt-input-63621.html

The one thing I see on these machines is that they seem to max out at 3/8"? That kinda maybe leans me back towards the transformer.

[tokugawa]

"I now seem to be identifying more welding projects, most farm oriented. "

 Forget the tig. tig is for nice work, or critical work, tig has to be clean clean clean. And clean.

 Look for a inverter stick machine, some import, 200 amps, an everlast or something like that. Light , low current, simple.
One of the welding gurus at welding web really likes his. Or buy an ESAB 161mini set up for stick. Or a Miller lunchbox.

 Or if you have the power, get the Miller or Lincoln transformer buzzbox. AC, or AC-DC They are all over CL for $150-250.
 

[dogmush]

Not to belabor my point, I didn't tell Ben to start TIG welding everything.  I said I would not buy a $500 stick welder, because that machine could end up limiting down the road, and more versitile machines aren't that much more.

A 200A AC/DC TIG box does what he wants that stick welder to do and also allows other processes and metals down the road if he wants to expand.  It's future proofing him, based on the fact he's already looking at a second welder.  It's also based on my experience of buying a similar mid step welder, and finding out I wanted more.  YMMV.

That said, behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Weldpro-Digital-Worldwide-Superflex-Trigger/dp/B084PY4C59/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?ie=UTF8&aaxitk=OBXZRiuMPJgblj.o3LXRZg&hsa_cr_id=8861688960501&ref_=sb_s_sparkle

A 200A AC/DC Inverter TIG that does everything that Hobart he was looking at does, plus it'll run small jobs on 110VAC for remote operations, plus if later he wants to TIG, he can, plus it's 50 lbs lighter.

I wouldn't buy the Hobart.

[Ben]

Not to belabor my point, I didn't tell Ben to start TIG welding everything.  I said I would not buy a $500 stick welder, because that machine could end up limiting down the road, and more versitile machines aren't that much more.

A 200A AC/DC TIG box does what he wants that stick welder to do and also allows other processes and metals down the road if he wants to expand.  It's future proofing him, based on the fact he's already looking at a second welder.  It's also based on my experience of buying a similar mid step welder, and finding out I wanted more.  YMMV.

That said, behold:

https://www.amazon.com/Weldpro-Digital-Worldwide-Superflex-Trigger/dp/B084PY4C59/ref=redir_mobile_desktop?ie=UTF8&aaxitk=OBXZRiuMPJgblj.o3LXRZg&hsa_cr_id=8861688960501&ref_=sb_s_sparkle

A 200A AC/DC Inverter TIG that does everything that Hobart he was looking at does, plus it'll run small jobs on 110VAC for remote operations, plus if later he wants to TIG, he can, plus it's 50 lbs lighter.

I wouldn't buy the Hobart.

You do realize you're becoming as annoying to me with welders as you are with guns, right? 

Between this one and the ESAB that tokugawa mentioned (also a stick/TIG machine), I'm now rethinking inverters. Both these seem to semi-suck on 110 for much "farm type" work, but from my cursory research, they would both easily run on my genny, and the reviews are quite good for 220 stick. Now I'm going back down the interwebz rabbit hole for some more thorough reading. I don't need one tomorrow,  so I want to make this a thoughtful purchase. What's the difference between a CK torch and a Euro torch?

The other option I started thinking about is that if I got an inverter and then still wanted a transformer for whatever reason, as multiple comments above mentioned, besides being bulletproof, they seem to be quite cheap on the used market, so it seems they are one of those used purchases where you don't have to worry much regarding working condition.

[tokugawa]

This started off with 350 bucks to spend. Moving to a grand really opens things up.
There are a lot of comments on import inverters- most seem to like them, some question parts availability or durability, some say they all have the same Chinese parts anyway, I know my Lincoln tig was "assembled" in mexico= probably is mostly Asian parts- I got it because of reputation- and a great deal.

 The only place so far it has been iffy was welding thin dirty metal- too dirty to tig, and outside in the wind to boot, and I had to really be careful with the stick not to burn through.  But it ran OK on a 5k inverter generator on 120v power.

 An under noted  thing about tig is how clean it is- no sparks or vapor if welding inside.