Author Topic: Another athiest question.  (Read 15263 times)

CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2007, 06:44:17 AM »
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But the evidence is only that you perceive-there's zero confirmation or evidence that there are things out there causing the perception.

If the subjectively gathered empirical data is best fitted by a model that includes objective reality, then accepting that model is the rational thing to do. This methodology is yet another reincarnation of the scientific method, which has been fabulously successful at prediction, something nobody and nothing else have been able to do to any even remotely comparable extent.

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Huh?? Logic?  Epistemology?  Ontology? The analytic tradition....list goes on.

Logic is part of mathematics, not philosophy. Analytical tradition is obviated by the scientific method.

Main Entry: on·tol·o·gy 
Pronunciation: \än-ˈtä-lə-jē\
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin ontologia, from ont- + -logia -logy
Date: circa 1721
1 : a branch of metaphysics concerned with the nature and relations of being
2 : a particular theory about the nature of being or the kinds of things that have existence

a.k.a. more metaphysics, that is essentially part of phenomenology

Main Entry: epis·te·mol·o·gy 
Pronunciation: \i-ˌpis-tə-ˈmä-lə-jē\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek epistēmē knowledge, from epistanai to understand, know, from epi- + histanai to cause to stand  more at stand
Date: circa 1856
: the study or a theory of the nature and grounds of knowledge especially with reference to its limits and validity

a.k.a. what I called "cognition" so that other readers do not need to go run for a dictionary to understand what I am saying

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Ah, I see.  So if subjective observation is evidence, then say....visions of God, repeatedly, giving religious commands would constitute empirical evidence?

They certainly would be. A particular seer should accept them as raw data, but also ask himself if his mind is not playing tricks upon him. Ultimately it is for him to decide if his experiences are creditable or he is just psychotic. Now, if he comes to me and tells me about them, I will require more than his word, I will need physical manifestations, which I can measure and study. Finally, such measurements must be reproducible to be accepted as the norm.

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you don't have any independent confirmation that there are things outside of subjective experience. 

It depends on what you perceive as independent. As mentioned above, the best fit to all the available experimental data is one that includes a vast external objective reality. Accepting that model as the current theory is a completely rational choice. Then based on the model of objective reality, it is easy to define what sources of empirical evidence are independent.

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You can make funny examples all you want, but those examples didn't get you outside of your mind to verify the point.

Ah, but the underlying reason why they are so funny is that the stance they criticize is made ridiculous by its very own irrationality.

De Selby

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #126 on: March 03, 2007, 11:59:35 AM »
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If the subjectively gathered empirical data is best fitted by a model that includes objective reality, then accepting that model is the rational thing to do.

Okay, so by what standard do we measure "best fitted" for any theory?  What criteria did you use to judge the theoretical models that might explain subjective experience?

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Logic is part of mathematics, not philosophy. Analytical tradition is obviated by the scientific method.

You need to head on down to your local philosopy department.  They're doing logic there as you speak.  Your comment about the analytic method makes no sense.   

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a.k.a. what I called "cognition" so that other readers do not need to go run for a dictionary to understand what I am saying

That's not what cognition is either.   Cognition is used academically to describe psychological and neuroscientific studies of mental processes in psychology, and of the brain functions involved in mental processes. 

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They certainly would be. A particular seer should accept them as raw data, but also ask himself if his mind is not playing tricks upon him. Ultimately it is for him to decide if his experiences are creditable or he is just psychotic.

There's that word again: "decide."

I guess you've totally rejected the claims you made previously about "valid knowledge" right?


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Ah, but the underlying reason why they are so funny is that the stance they criticize is made ridiculous by its very own irrationality.

If it were so ridiculous, it wouldn't have required you to trash your claims about "valid knowledge."
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #127 on: March 03, 2007, 04:36:48 PM »
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Okay, so by what standard do we measure "best fitted" for any theory? 

Mathematics and probability. This should be clear to you if you took any experimental physics or chemistry courses whatsoever.

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You need to head on down to your local philosopy department.  They're doing logic there as you speak.  Your comment about the analytic method makes no sense. 

Please give an example of valid logic and analytic methods that is not part of mathematics or physical sciences.

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That's not what cognition is either.   Cognition is used academically to describe psychological and neuroscientific studies of mental processes in psychology, and of the brain functions involved in mental processes. 

Am I to understand you suggest there are perception and mental processes outside the brain? If so, what is your evidence for such a claim? If you don't have any, we should leave the field to neuroscience and psychology. Again, philosophy has no leg to stand here.

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There's that word again: "decide." I guess you've totally rejected the claims you made previously about "valid knowledge" right?

Not at all. Decision-making is part of induction and deduction working together.


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If it were so ridiculous, it wouldn't have required you to trash your claims about "valid knowledge."

You will have to explain how my making fun of hypocritical solipsists undermines my claims about valid knowledge. If you stop to think, you will see that in my perspective there is no internal contradiction. A solipsist may have trouble using my tools, but it is an already failed system. Again, remember which hat you have on.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #128 on: March 03, 2007, 09:25:00 PM »
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Please give an example of valid logic and analytic methods that is not part of mathematics or physical sciences.


Logic is the cornerstone of philosophy.  Philosophy is where modern geometry and mathematics came from.

A brief history of logic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #129 on: March 03, 2007, 11:01:47 PM »
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Philosophy is where modern geometry and mathematics came from.

And that's the crux of the problem, isn't? At the times of Plato and Aristotle, it was certainly all philosophy ("love of wisdom"). But we do not live in those times. Legitimate, exact siences have emerged from "natural philosophy" to study the world empirically and logically, producing correct predictions. And that is also why the remaining philosophy went deeper into ethics and metaphysics, as it became irrelevant in the areas taken over by mathematics, physics, chemistry, and biology.

De Selby

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #130 on: March 03, 2007, 11:13:46 PM »
Thank you carebear for setting the record straight.

CAnnoneer,
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Mathematics and probability. This should be clear to you if you took any experimental physics or chemistry courses whatsoever.

Alright, then do this: Take a stab at providing a mathematical model that judges the probability of there being objects that exist outside of your subjective perception.

If you can't do that, then how are we supposed to judge your theory that there are things outside of your mind causing the experiences inside your mind?

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Am I to understand you suggest there are perception and mental processes outside the brain? If so, what is your evidence for such a claim? If you don't have any, we should leave the field to neuroscience and psychology. Again, philosophy has no leg to stand here.

This is a field where neuroscience and philosophy intersect.  It's hotly debated and not well mapped out. Clearly, subjective experience itself isn't the same thing as a physical function...think of Putnam's and Searle's chinese brain arguments. 

Not only does philosophy have a leg to stand on here, but many of the most important issues in both fields are being hashed out in philosophy departments. 

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Not at all. Decision-making is part of induction and deduction working together.

Okay....so let's see the decision making model you used to conclude that things exist outside of your subjective experience.

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If you stop to think, you will see that in my perspective there is no internal contradiction.

I'm sorry, but asserting:

"Only deductive, empirical, and inductive methods yield valid knowledge"

and then saying "Look, there are things outside of my mind because I decided to believe in it, and that's valid knowledge"

is a contradiction. 

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And that is also why the remaining philosophy went deeper into ethics and metaphysics, as it became irrelevant in the areas taken over by mathematics, physics, chemistry, and biology.

Deeper into metaphysics and ethics?  Huh?

Philosophy went completely out of metaphysics and further from ethics as the sciences advanced.

This is bizarre.  I mean, you clearly understand that you don't know much about what goes on in philosophy and you haven't had any real exposure to the material...you know that, presumably.  So why on earth do you keep posting these theories about what is going on in philosophy, and what has gone on?

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #131 on: March 04, 2007, 10:25:31 AM »
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Take a stab at providing a mathematical model that judges the probability of there being objects that exist outside of your subjective perception.

That's pretty straightforward actually.

Take an apple. Look at it for awhile; learn its taste, texture, temperature, color, smell. Now you perceive it. Stick it in a box, so that you no longer perceive it. Take it out and study it again. Do this a thousand times. From a mathematical perspective, what is the probability that you will find the exact same apple over and over again?

If I am a solipsist who does not believe in independent reality, I would expect virtually anything inside the box. Let's say there are 1,000,000 objects that there could be in the box, including an apple. Let's assume that all independent degrees of apple freedom produce 1,000 types of apples you can find. Then the probability that you would get this particular apple is 1:1,000,000,000. Then the probability to get exactly the same apple 1,000 times is 1:1,000,000,000,000. Now apply this argument to any object within your perception. You will get astronomically small chance for everyday observations.

Now let's see how the problem looks from the perspective of objective reality. I have exactly 1 in 1 chance to find the same apple (or at least an apple of exactly the same empirical properties) an arbitrary number of trials (well, quantum-mechanically it is not "exactly" 1:1 but essentially 1:1). Thus the model of objective reality is the crushingly more likely one, and thus the rational decision is to accept it as a working theory. Now if my apples start vanishing spontaneously, or turning into poodles, then I must reexamine my working theory.

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This is a field where neuroscience and philosophy intersect.  It's hotly debated and not well mapped out.

It is not mapped out because they cannot map it out and never will by themselves. The only way to produce anything reliable and valuable is by scientific investigation from the attack vectors of neuroscience from one side and experimental psychology from the other.

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Clearly, subjective experience itself isn't the same thing as a physical function...think of Putnam's and Searle's chinese brain arguments. 

Let me do some googling to see what you refer to.

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Okay....so let's see the decision making model you used to conclude that things exist outside of your subjective experience.

I explained above the train of thought in the probabilistic argument. Induction would be used to assemble the model of objective reality. Deduction would be used to select it as the working theory based on the mathematical calculation and the requirement for probability maximization.

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"Only deductive, empirical, and inductive methods yield valid knowledge" and then saying "Look, there are things outside of my mind because I decided to believe in it, and that's valid knowledge" is a contradiction. 

I am not saying that there ARE things outside. I am saying that the most-likely-correct model leads to that conclusion. You are free to choose a less likely, worse-fit model instead, but you are ultimately handicapping yourself.

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Philosophy went completely out of metaphysics and further from ethics as the sciences advanced.

Fine, explain to us what they do that is not ethics and does not fall under other, well-established sciences.

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I mean, you clearly understand that you don't know much about what goes on in philosophy

My point is that as their daughter sciences separated and matured on their own, they have displaced the host into obsolescence. I cannot think of one meaningful practical thing that philosophy can address better than math or the empirical exact sciences. If you can, please provide an example. I do not know much about the current state of theology either, but knowing their methods and conclusions, I can immediately say they are wrong in my worldview, and I do not need to know any further details to come to that conclusion.

De Selby

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #132 on: March 04, 2007, 12:57:58 PM »
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That's pretty straightforward actually.

That was a pretty straightforward example of jury rigging, sure.

You presume, apparently out of thin air, that believing that the apple is entirely within your subjective perception means believing that it must vanish or change at random.

Without having a data set to compare subjective experience based on external objects, or subjective experience self-contained, how can you possibly assert this assumption?

You don't have any reason at all to suspect that an apple couldn't remain constant in your subjective experience if it were only a subjective experience.  And again, without being able to step out of your mind and compare experiences within the mind to those of things outside the mind....you couldn't even theoretically have the data necessary to estimate this probability.

What you have there is a blind assumption with some made up numbers masquerading as a "mathematical probability."

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It is not mapped out because they cannot map it out and never will by themselves. The only way to produce anything reliable and valuable is by scientific investigation from the attack vectors of neuroscience from one side and experimental psychology from the other.

Well, if you don't even know what consciousness is, how do you go about measuring it?

There's no weight for subjective experience.  It's very difficult to even define what it is, much less to go about investigating the relationship between the brain and experience.  So sorting out just what we mean when we talk about "investigating consciousness" is crucial to actually carrying out a scientific investigation of the subject. Hence....you rely on philosophers.

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I am not saying that there ARE things outside. I am saying that the most-likely-correct model leads to that conclusion. You are free to choose a less likely, worse-fit model instead, but you are ultimately handicapping yourself.

The problem is that your "most likely correct" model isn't an actual mathematical test; it's your assumptions dressed up with your even more blind assumption that things CAnnoneer thinks are unlikely should have low probabilities assigned, and that things CAnnoneer thinks are highly probable should have high probabilities assigned.

Again, you didn't come up with a "best fit model."  You just renamed your model "mathematical" and typed out some numbers-it's not any less a blind faith assumption because of it.

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Fine, explain to us what they do that is not ethics and does not fall under other, well-established sciences.

For one thing, debating the standards for asserting a scientific claim is one of the main things they do.  This is especially relevant to physics and psychology, where theoretical debates are common.  If you can't come up with a reasonable standard to measure claims, you can't really make any progress.  That's a large part of what philosophers have been doing for the past century.

Ethics, on the other hand, has pretty much gone out the window since the existentialists.  So I'm not sure where you're coming up with this idea that philosophy can only be ethics...it's actually been the case that philosophy has not been primarily concerned with ethics for more than a hundred years.

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If you can, please provide an example. I do not know much about the current state of theology either, but knowing their methods and conclusions, I can immediately say they are wrong in my worldview, and I do not need to know any further details to come to that conclusion.

Haha, amazing....you don't have to know what's going on with a subject in order to conclude that it's wrong!?

Now that's the kind of attitude that makes science great!  grin
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Matthew Carberry

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #133 on: March 04, 2007, 01:01:47 PM »
CAnnon,

...and everyone else who cares.

Interesting article in today's NYT Magazine.  I just scanned it but it is about an evolutionary scientist's examination of belief in the supernatural.  Looks pretty good, probably a book involved.
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CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #134 on: March 04, 2007, 01:22:13 PM »
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You presume, apparently out of thin air, that believing that the apple is entirely within your subjective perception means believing that it must vanish or change at random.

Nope. Think about it again and remember which hat you have on and when.

In a solipsistic universe, there is no reason why the apple should remain an apple. Since everything is possible and equally likely, the calculation holds. If you believe that that is an unfair assignment of probability, you have to explain your reasoning. Again, there is no a priori reason why the apple will remain an apple with higher probability than will change in something else or disappear altogether.

By contrast, in an objective universe, there is a very strong reason why it will remain an apple - it is what it is and it remains the same independent of yourself or your perception of it.

Finally, I cannot eliminate the possibility that I live in a solipsistic universe that behaves EXACTLY as if there is an objective universe, at least not by the method above. But the probability for this is vanishing. A difference to be a difference must make a difference. If this highly improbable solipsistic universe behaves EXACTLY like a highly probable objective universe, then for all practical purposes, I am completely correct in my model.

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It is not mapped out because they cannot map it out and never will by themselves. The only way to produce anything reliable and valuable is by scientific investigation from the attack vectors of neuroscience from one side and experimental psychology from the other.

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Well, if you don't even know what consciousness is, how do you go about measuring it?

Huh?? You have to know what something is before you measure it??? You just killed science.

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So sorting out just what we mean when we talk about "investigating consciousness" is crucial to actually carrying out a scientific investigation of the subject. Hence....you rely on philosophers.

Nope, they are worthless to me. Give me a psychologist to measure behavior and a neuroscientist to study the brain. What else is there? A guy can spend all his life trying to define what consciousness is. That's the best way to end up where he started from decades later. Philosophers are not too much unlike the medieval celibate monk theologists writing about women.

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Again, you didn't come up with a "best fit model."  You just renamed your model "mathematical" and typed out some numbers-it's not any less a blind faith assumption because of it.

See above.

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  If you can't come up with a reasonable standard to measure claims, you can't really make any progress.  That's a large part of what philosophers have been doing for the past century.

Har-har-har-har! Thanks a bunch, we have been managing quite well on our own for the past 400 years.

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So I'm not sure where you're coming up with this idea that philosophy can only be ethics...

Because all other former domains of philosophy have been taken over and are being managed far better by math and the exact physical sciences. Again, there is nothing left of value that philosophers can do, other than perhaps ethics/aesthetics and even those areas are under heavy assault more recently by emerging sociobiology.

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you don't have to know what's going on with a subject in order to conclude that it's wrong!?

Sure. If the first equation you write on the board is 2+2=5, rest assured you have lost my attention. If I get 1,000 monkeys typing Shakespeare, after seeing the publishing house and reading the first page of jibberish, do I really have to go through the other 999 pages before I declare it is likely rubbish? Is the vanishing probability that there may be a cogent sentence on page 346 worth my time reading through? Life is too short to be wasted on the substandard.

De Selby

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #135 on: March 04, 2007, 01:37:04 PM »
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Since everything is possible and equally likely, the calculation holds. If you believe that that is an unfair assignment of probability, you have to explain your reasoning

What?! Why is this a feature of subjective experience?  Why do we assume that "everything is equally likely" if there is only subjective experience?

Why can't subjective experience be subjective experience and also be exactly like it is for us right now?

It's unfair in terms of mathematical explanations because it is out of the blue.  If what you meant by "mathematical model" was "I'll just make up any  number for probability I want and assign it..." well, then the mathematical method has no value, does it?

If you meant "i'll try to discern actual mathematical probabilities", well, you didn't do that....and you'll be obliged to show why "everything is equally probable" in subjective experience.

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By contrast, in an objective universe, there is a very strong reason why it will remain an apple - it is what it is and it remains the same independent of yourself or your perception of it.

More assumption:  Why can't it be the case that the "objective universe" is actually made up of fickle and constantly changing forces, and that subjective perception imposes consistency and duration on experiences?

These are assumptions, not calculations.  And not only that: they're totally out of the blue.  I know you strongly intuit that they aren't...but your strong intuitions don't constitute mathematical figures.

 
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But the probability for this is vanishing.

Based on what? Certainly not by confirmation of objects outside of experience, which has never occured.  It's not even theoretically possible.  So how is the "probability vanishing"?

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You have to know what something is before you measure it??? You just killed science.

Uh, no, but you have to know what measurements you're going to take.  You can't say "I'm going to measure oogaboogawooga, an undefined word from bantu languages that corresponds to some odd thing, that we don't really understand", and then go about doing experiments.

The question is: What is consciousness? More specifically: "what kind of thing is it?"  If you don't have any clue, how do you design an experiment to measure it?

Is it material?  Okay...then we can try to measure it with things that measure material objects.

Is it immaterial? Hmmm....we'll have to design a different kind of experiment.

Is it shared or personal? 

See the point?

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Nope, they are worthless to me

I'm not surprised.  You don't know anything about it; of course it can't be of value to you.

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Thanks a bunch, we have been managing quite well on our own for the past 400 years.

Huh? You don't see any contribution of philosophers to theoretical debates on the scientific method in 400 years?

Wow.  This is clearly a basic knowledge problem, and not a disagreement as to method.

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Is the vanishing probability that there may be a cogent sentence on page 346 worth my time reading through? Life is too short to be wasted on the substandard.

You don't even know what the methods are.  You were claiming that it was all ethics a few posts ago...now you're backtracking to cover complete error on that point.

Yes, you have to know something about what they're doing and how they do it, even a miniscule something, to conclude it's a waste of time.  You apparently aren't there...and the more bizarre thing is that you are expanding your claims to historical ones about the development of the sciences now. 

If I were you, I'd be reading more before expanding my claims at this point. 
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #136 on: March 04, 2007, 05:46:00 PM »
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Why do we assume that "everything is equally likely" if there is only subjective experience?

They are all distinct possibilities, e.g. carrot, apple, pen, bubblegum, etc. In the absence of any reason to assign more probability to anyone of them, it is reasonable to assign equal probability. It is a rational choice and a standard method, e.g. if you ever studied statistical mechanics. If you had, all of this would have been very clear you.

I get the distinct impression you are not reading my posts, or at least, you are not thinking about them at all. Also, think about the differences between probability and possibility. You confuse the two quite a lot.

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Why can't subjective experience be subjective experience and also be exactly like it is for us right now?

I covered that very clearly in my previous post. Are you at all reading?

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well, then the mathematical method has no value, does it?

You scrapped probability theory and statistical mechanics just now.

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and you'll be obliged to show why "everything is equally probable" in subjective experience.

When you have a set of distinct independent outcomes you assign equal probability to them. This is probability theory 101.

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More assumption:  Why can't it be the case that the "objective universe" is actually made up of fickle and constantly changing forces, and that subjective perception imposes consistency and duration on experiences?

Your subjective experiences will then quickly get out of phase with the objective universe, to your likely physical detriment, just like a madman jumping off a building because he thinks pink clouds will hold him. We clearly do not observe that and are still around to talk about it.

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I know you strongly intuit that they aren't...but your strong intuitions don't constitute mathematical figures.

Intuition has nothing to do with it. It is all observation, repeatability, and probability. You will convince yourself in it if you admit that it is a rational choice to choose a highly probable theory over an extremely improbable one, even if both of them are technically possible.

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  So how is the "probability vanishing"?

The probability is vanishing because all possible outcomes of all tests and observations in a solipsistic universe produce an extremely high number of equally likely solipsistic universes. Only one of them completely corresponds to my model of objective reality perceived by a subjective observer. Such a coincidence then has an astronomically low probability.

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You can't say "I'm going to measure oogaboogawooga, an undefined word from bantu languages that corresponds to some odd thing, that we don't really understand", and then go about doing experiments.

You have just summarized the problem with language-based philosophy and "logic". They are all based on abstract notions of degrees of generality. They cannot do anything without first defining it, and once they define it, they have loaded the answer. Think about it. This is a very profound point.

Science by contrast says "let's go out there and look at the universe and study it. When we see something we do not know, we can give it an arbitrary name, whose definition will change along with our understanding of it." By contrast, philosophers/logicians are crippled from the start. I cannot help you with this one. You have to see it for yourself.

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The question is: What is consciousness? More specifically: "what kind of thing is it?"  If you don't have any clue, how do you design an experiment to measure it?

I certainly will not assume anything about it by defining it. I will do experiments to study it. Meanwhile, I can call it Sample #32456/31 for bookkeeping purposes. See above for extension of the point.

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You don't know anything about it; of course it can't be of value to you.

Produce something useful and you will gain my interest. Until then, you are just a wanker who expects society to pay for a lifetime of his intellectual masturbations and attacks anyone who calls him on it as ignorant of the very same. Blunt but true.

You want to study logic? Be a mathematician. You want to know how the universe works on a fundamental level? Be a physicist. You want to know about materials and compounds? Be a chemist? You want to dwell into what life is? Be a biologist. Playing games with empty concepts and definitions while ignoring common sense, probability, and empirical evidence is simply silly.

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You don't see any contribution of philosophers to theoretical debates on the scientific method in 400 years?

You of all people should know that up to the 19th c., professorial positions were in "natural philosophy", which is an indication of the same roots among the different branches of exact sciences and philosophy as an ancient field. It was certainly all philosophy at the times of Plato and Aristotle. As I said multiple times in this thread, that was then. Now we have all the useful branches separated from philosophy into math, physics, chemistry, etc. Yet again, you have failed to provide even one example of anything practically useful in modern philosophy, which does not ultimately belong in another modern field.

I'd like you to provide particular examples in which pure philosophers have provided a significant contribution to the scientific method. That should not be a problem for you, should it?

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You don't even know what the methods are.  You were claiming that it was all ethics a few posts ago...now you're backtracking to cover complete error on that point.

What I said was that ethics is the only thing that philosophers can seriously deal with. Everything else belongs elsewhere.

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the more bizarre thing is that you are expanding your claims to historical ones about the development of the sciences now. 

They are not just claims. It is the historical truth.

De Selby

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #137 on: March 04, 2007, 06:49:57 PM »
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It is a rational choice and a standard method, e.g. if you ever studied statistical mechanics. If you had, all of this would have been very clear you.

You're missing the irrational presumption that I pointed out: ie, why do you have to presume that if there is only subjective experience, subjective experience must have unpredictable object-persistence?

That makes no sense.  If your point is that we don't know anything about subjective experience, so it's just as likely to have object-persistence or not...the same is true of "objective reality", since we don't have any direct access to that either.

I think your fundamental problem here is that you're assuming "objective reality", and then comparing alternatives to the assumed truth.  That would be, quite simply, begging the question...of course if you assume objective reality exists and that it's just like perception now, then perception-as-is matches objective reality.

Remove the presumption that there are things outside perception, and guess what changes? Nothing...there is no reason why you must assume "objective reality" in order to explain your current sensory perception.

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When you have a set of distinct independent outcomes you assign equal probability to them. This is probability theory 101.

The problem is that this "distinct set" is based on a faulty presumption.  That's what I pointed out last time. 

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Your subjective experiences will then quickly get out of phase with the objective universe, to your likely physical detriment, just like a madman jumping off a building because he thinks pink clouds will hold him. We clearly do not observe that and are still around to talk about it.

And I'll ask again: When did you magically remove yourself from subjective perception, in order to confirm that people who don't believe in it will "quickly get out of phase with the objective universe"?

If you haven't done that, then how do you know that even perception of physical detriment is not entirely contained by subjective experience?  Or is there some quality about pain that makes not subjectively experienced?

Your problem is that you are keeping the same blind-faith, irrational assumption: that there is something outside your subjective experience.  All your responses and supposed "valid knowledge" claims depend on that assumption, even when they purport to be defending it.  As such, they aren't justifications...they're just restatements of the same presumption dressed up with some numbers.


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The probability is vanishing because all possible outcomes of all tests and observations in a solipsistic universe produce an extremely high number of equally likely solipsistic universes.

Your test is faulty because it presumes that subjective experience must have certain qualities, without having any shred of a reason to do so.  You are only testing subjective experience as "not what is now, but rather, something other than what we experience now", and have thereby jury rigged your tests to come up with the answer you want.

This would be like testing the proposition that one racial group commits all crimes by only looking at members of that particular racial group in your study.  You have engineered the test to support the blind faith assumption and based all of its criteria on accepting the blind-faith assumption, and did not actually test it.

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They are all based on abstract notions of degrees of generality. They cannot do anything without first defining it, and once they define it, they have loaded the answer. Think about it. This is a very profound point.

That's actually terribly mundane.  The point is to define it so that you know what you are saying and can thus precisely test your claims.  It's not a "loaded answer", it's something you have to do in order to assert anything resembling a hypothesis.

If you don't start with any clearly defined claims, you can't test them.  The name can certainly be arbitrary, but if you don't know what it means or what kind of thing it is, you can't even in theory test it.  And when you come up with theories to explain the data you do get....what a mess you will have if you didn't stop to sort out what exactly it is your theory is claiming to explain and how it explains it.


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I certainly will not assume anything about it by defining it. I will do experiments to study it. Meanwhile, I can call it Sample #32456/31 for bookkeeping purposes. See above for extension of the point.

Yeah, but how do you study consciousness without knowing what it is?  What's your experiment going to be?  Put a scale in a room and ask people to think to see if it has a weight?

Find yourself a neuroscientist or a psychologist and ask them how they study and define consciousness.  It's not as simple as "eh, we just use the word and do tests."  It is a philosophical problem, and....that's something you could start learning about with Searle et al on the chinese brain argument.

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Produce something useful and you will gain my interest. Until then, you are just a wanker who expects society to pay for a lifetime of his intellectual masturbations and attacks anyone who calls him on it as ignorant of the very same. Blunt but true.

Well, if you don't have any familiarity with the material, how do you know there's nothing useful there?


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You want to study logic? Be a mathematician. You want to know how the universe works on a fundamental level? Be a physicist. You want to know about materials and compounds? Be a chemist? You want to dwell into what life is? Be a biologist. Playing games with empty concepts and definitions while ignoring common sense, probability, and empirical evidence is simply silly.

Want to know something about the value of philosophy?  Stop making yourself look silly with all these wild assertions about what it is and isn't and pick up a book.  I recommend 1000 years of philosophy by Romano Harre; it's a good book for beginners.


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They are not just claims. It is the historical truth.

Oh yes, is this the same "truth" of philosophy being ethics, not doing logic, and of there being an "objective reality" outside of your mind that you can test without ever having gotten outside of your mind to begin with?

I'm really having a hard time telling the difference between your claims and your truth.  It looks to me like the rule for truth in your world is "If CAnnoneer claims it, it must be true."  Cute, quaint...but rational?



"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

CAnnoneer

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #138 on: March 05, 2007, 06:55:10 AM »
There is no point in continuing the discussion if you consistently fail to comprehend/internalize my arguments and repeatedly refuse to answer even the simplest questions.

De Selby

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Re: Another athiest question.
« Reply #139 on: March 05, 2007, 08:33:12 AM »
CAnnoneer,

Well, there's about as much rationalization in your bow-out as in your posts.

"CAnnoneer says so, therefore, there's no possible dispute."  Definitely not something you can reason with, and certainly not a "scientific" position.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."