A Murder Not Covered in the MSM

[Bogie]

Here in the STL, they like playing Grand Theft Auto... If you're driving at night, keep your head on a swivel.
 
I'm for drawing and quartering, and instead of decapitation, wood chipper.

[Northwoods]

🙄

I don’t have the time or energy right now to detail all that is wrong with that, but suffice it to say it demonstrates a profound ignorance of Christian forgiveness.

[cordex]

… it demonstrates a profound ignorance of Christian forgiveness.

Of course, demonstrating understanding was not the point.

[Pb]

Two comments:
1) Forgiveness in Christianity does not absolve people for the temporal punishment for crimes.  A murderer who repents still should be executed for his/her crimes, for example.
2) Genuine forgiveness transforms the person forgiven... the obvious example from this in the Bible is the apostle Paul, who zealously captured Christians for execution.  After being confronted with the risen Christ, his life was transformed into one of non-violence, who spread the good news.  He was, in fact, later murdered by the Romans for doing this. 

A "convert" who does not exhibit a transformed life as evidence of salvation., is in fact a false convert, and should expect nothing other than eternal death at the last judgement.

If you want to see how the life of an evil person can be transformed, you may be interested in the story of David Wood.  It is a weird one.  If you watch the video, please consider the question:  Would I prefer this man to have not been converted, and have remained as he was?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9a6U-BF-T6g&t=1s

[230RN]

I knew someone would come up with that thin excuse for excruciating "punishment."  Whomever wrote Romans 12:19 said it that's who.  Rage and anger, while understandable, has no place in society's duty to excise its cancers.

It's the kind of mentality which causes a "person" to beat a puppy unmercifully for pooping on the carpet when a nose-rubbing in it and a loud "No, no" is appropriate.  May I emphasize "the kind of mentality?"

Or, e.g., shaking a baby to death in a furious rage.

Vengeful torture as punishment does not help the victim and I would not guess that it would effectively discourage similar offenses by others in the long term except perhaps by the Darwinian gradual effect of removal of like "genes" from the "gene pool."  A tranquilizer, a massive shot of KCl, an EEG with no signals, turn the corpse over to the relatives... that should suffice.

That's where I stand on wood chipper (and the like) "justice."

"Instrument of G-d's justice" Indeed.  What a paltry excuse for sadism.

Removal from society is the goal, not satisfying one's sadistic urges.

Go burn a puppy at the stake.  No kidding.


Terry, 230RN

[BobR]

Just a random thought about the wood chipper. Do you do bilateral tourniquets at the proximal thigh? How about an epidural to numb from the knees down or maybe even higher? Wouldn't you want the chipee to at least be aware for some of it to get the full effect of the punishment? I mean, just tossing them feet first into a chipper wouldn't last very long due to loss of consciousnesses of the chipee secondary to blood loss or the mere shock from the pain or even just watching. It seems to me that even such a simple act of throwing someone into a chipper needs more thought than I had envisioned before. (no emoticons)

bob

[zxcvbob]

To be fair, "the wood chipper" is kind of a meme around here.

[dogmush]

Two comments:
1) Forgiveness in Christianity does not absolve people for the temporal punishment for crimes.  A murderer who repents still should be executed for his/her crimes, for example.
2) Genuine forgiveness transforms the person forgiven... the obvious example from this in the Bible is the apostle Paul, who zealously captured Christians for execution.  After being confronted with the risen Christ, his life was transformed into one of non-violence, who spread the good news.  He was, in fact, later murdered by the Romans for doing this. 

A "convert" who does not exhibit a transformed life as evidence of salvation., is in fact a false convert, and should expect nothing other than eternal death at the last judgement.

If you want to see how the life of an evil person can be transformed, you may be interested in the story of David Wood.  It is a weird one.  If you watch the video, please consider the question:  Would I prefer this man to have not been converted, and have remained as he was?

So let's assume the murderer was genuinely contrite, converted, was forgiven for his sins, and after he got out of prison spent the remainder of his life doing missionary work and caring for the poor.  None of that makes the meme incorrect.  The forgiven man will (presumably) enter paradise one day where his victims will get to meet him.  Perhaps your God's forgivness can sooth the murdered women and children in the afterlife.

Me, I want my blood. In this world or the next.

[230RN]

Being fed slowly feet first into a chipper/shredder would be too good for these puss-bags.   

zxcvbob, is the bolded "slowly" part of the "meme?"

How about adding "a chipper/shredder geared down to half the RPM"?

Better?  You likee?

A mere "meme," my ass.

Terry, 230RN

[zxcvbob]

zxcvbob, is the bolded "slowly" part of the "meme?"

No, of course not.  But I'm not sure the slowly part really makes it that much worse.  It does however indicate the choice of execution method is intentionally cruel and unusual, rather that expedient.  I'm just saying we're all busting TJ's chops over a minor variation on something that's been said frequently around here.

[Pb]

Me, I want my blood. In this world or the next.

As I explained, conversion does not negate any penalty on earth, including execution.

The purpose of the meme was to ridicule the idea that God would forgive an evil person.  God can in fact forgive evil people.  The idea is not stupid, because a real conversion leads to a change.  St. Paul is an obvious example of this.  David Wood is a modern example I posted.  If you find the transformation of evil people into good ones ridiculous and offensive, well, I don't agree.

As Christ said, it is not the healthy that need a doctor, but the sick.  We are all "sick", to varying degrees.

[dogmush]

.  If you find the transformation of evil people into good ones ridiculous and offensive, well, I don't agree.

I find the fact that your God forgives even when he wasn't the one transgressed against,  and expects you all to accept it strange. (Won't go so far as "ridiculous and offensive",  but strange)

Jail and or execution  is to pay the debt to society.  It does not make whole the murdered family, indeed nothing can make them whole, short of a miracle. And yet grace and forgiveness comes not from the wronged, but from a third party.

Slight thread drift here, I guess.

[Pb]

I find the fact that your God forgives even when he wasn't the one transgressed against,  and expects you all to accept it strange.

I guess it does sound strange.  Consider...sin is both a transgression against both human victims and God.  God is our creator, and we owe him our obedience.  Here is a poor analogy; suppose you have a pet dog, and you train him to not be aggressive.  He disobeys you, and bites a neighbor.  He has committed a "sin" against both your neighbor and you.

For justice to human victims of crime, God demands that people who commit crimes be punished by civil authorities, even if they convert and mend their ways.  God reserves for himself the right to forgive, though the death of Christ, the truly repentant, and transform them into a new creation. He will then bring them into his kingdom after death. 

The unrepentant receive the appropriate punishment (weather great or small) for their sins and then are destroyed forever in the lake of fire.

[MillCreek]

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/law-justice/driver-in-seattle-cyclists-hit-and-run-death-sentenced-to-4-years-in-prison/?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=owned_echobox_f&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR2ecpYKdl12pro0XGiabk5K1XOX-vpwE7LYz3AoNQtUD7--_9qSNDhoOSU#Echobox=1695524919

Four years for a hit and run driver killing a 63 year old bicycle rider in Seattle.

[WLJ]

Dashcam footage of the first hit released.
Apparently police think they were involved in at least 3 hit nd runs that day. Kids just having fun.

Shocking new dashcam footage shows two Las Vegas teens mowing down cyclist hours before hitting retired LA police chief and killing him - as video shows them trying to flee from cops
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12663961/Shocking-new-dashcam-footage-shows-two-Las-Vegas-teens-mowing-cyclist-hours-hitting-retired-LA-police-chief-killing-video-shows-trying-flee-cops.html

[WLJ]

Laughing and flipping the bird at the Chief's family in court

[Northwoods]

Laughing and flipping the bird at the Chief's family in court

When the guilty verdict is read, a true justice system would have them taken out behind the courthouse and hung or shot.

This is not something where there is even the slightest doubt about what they did.  This goes well beyond “reasonable doubt” and is beyond all doubt.  Plus they’ve proven themselves to be rabid animals that have no right to remain in society.

[JTHunter]

When the guilty verdict is read, a true justice system would have them taken out behind the courthouse and hung or shot.

This is not something where there is even the slightest doubt about what they did.  This goes well beyond “reasonable doubt” and is beyond all doubt.  Plus they’ve proven themselves to be rabid animals that have no right to remain in society.

Amen to that !! 

[WLJ]

Update

End Wokeness
@EndWokeness
Jesus Ayala (19) mowed down and kiIIed retired officer Andreas Probst in Vegas.

2 out of 3 doctors said he's fit for trial.

Judge Christy Craig ruled him UNFIT.

https://x.com/EndWokeness/status/1845597517435854992

Nevada teen charged in death of retired police chief found unfit to stand trial
Andreas Probst was killed in August 2023 while riding a bicycle in Las Vegas when he was struck by a vehicle
https://www.foxnews.com/us/nevada-teen-charged-death-retired-police-chief-found-unfit-stand-trial

Jesus Ayala, now 19, has been moved from jail to a secure Nevada psychiatric facility for evaluation, treatment and possible trial if he is found competent, according to cover records. The commitment order suspends criminal charges against him.

[Bogie]

Modification:
 
Trebuchet to Wood Chipper

[JTHunter]

Modification:
 
Trebuchet to Wood Chipper

Save the trebuchet for use returning "illegals" to the other side of the wall. 

[Ben]

This is disgusting. Is there news of the status of the other ahole? They both need to die.

[MechAg94]

There comes a point where a criminal just needs to be killed after a just trial.  The fact that the law and courts flip the bird at the victims these days is a tragedy.  The US has seen mob justice in the past for less.  That said, just put them to death.  No need for cruel or unusual methods.  Just get it done so the victims can more forward and leave it in the past as best they can.

I believe I heard somewhere that the biblical punishment for those who harm the little ones was to tie them to a large mill stone and throw them in the deepest ocean.  Including removing their name from public records or mention.  I kind of like that.  Get rid of them and get rid of any memory of them.  No need for exceptional efforts by those doing the punishment. 

[Hawkmoon]

zxcvbob, is the bolded "slowly" part of the "meme?"

How about adding "a chipper/shredder geared down to half the RPM"?

Better?  You likee?

A mere "meme," my ass.

Terry, 230RN

The wood chipper has been a meme since the Helle Crafts murder in 1986. The wood chipper meme was used in the movie Fargo, which mentioned the Crafts murder as its inspiration.