Vehicle Charging Stations?

[Ben]

I don't know much about them, but are there many compatibility issues?

After my eclipse chasing today, I was close enough to McDermitt, NV (more of a rest stop than a town) to stop at the Chevron for some Chorizo and gas. I hadn't been there in over a year and saw that they have charging stations now. A big island of I think eight Tesla chargers, and then a smaller island of two really crappy, rundown looking chargers.

Most of the Tesla chargers were empty, but both the crappy looking chargers were in use. I'm just wondering if there's a lot of cars out there that can't use the Tesla chargers? One of the guys had a lawn chair out, so I'm assuming the crappy chargers are way slow.

[dogmush]

Until this year only Tesla's could use Superchargers in North America.  A bunch of makers are switching to Tesla's CCS plug in the next couple years, but they haven't really come out yet.

[230RN]

How much do they charge kWh-wise for the energy?

Never really thought about an electric vehicle since I'm in an apartment, not in a private home where househod chargers can be installed.

I kind of wondered how much it costs "on the street."

Will there be signs at competitive charging sites advertising the costs, like $X.99 / gallon for gasoline?  How are state and local taxes (etc.) figured in?

E.g.: "The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon and 24.4 cents per gallon for diesel fuel.  --Wiki"

[HeroHog]

Well, I plugged my aunt's car trickle charger in because she drives so little these days. Best I can do, guys.

[Ben]

Will there be signs at competitive charging sites advertising the costs, like $X.99 / gallon for gasoline?

Interesting question. I don't believe I have ever seen a price sign for charger banks they way I've seen them at gas stations, where you can see them from the street. Not even a sign right at the charge banks when I drive by them in parking lots or wherever. I assume there is some signage on the pump itself.

[Hawkmoon]

Interesting question. I don't believe I have ever seen a price sign for charger banks they way I've seen them at gas stations, where you can see them from the street. Not even a sign right at the charge banks when I drive by them in parking lots or wherever. I assume there is some signage on the pump itself.

The municipal annex building I work in has a dual-port charging station out front. I have seen connected to it multiple Teslas, a couple of Chevrolet something-or-others, a Mini Cooper, a Jeep Wrangler, and a couple of other vehicles. I wasn't even aware that there was an electric version of the Mini Cooper or the Jeep Wrangler until I saw them plugged in.

Since it works with all these different makes, I assume it's a Level 2 charging station, not Level 3.

[230RN]

Well I was really interested in the taxes... for gasoline, the tax is supposedly for road maintenance I guess, but are they figuring similar taxes for electricity usage "on the road" as it were?

If they (the Feds and States) aren't charging now, I'll bet my ten bucks against your donut that they will, and that will change the calculus of the cost of running electric vehicles drastically.

So... costs per kWh "at the pump," so to speak?

Terry. 230RN

[zahc]

One of the original problems with the Tesla chargers was that they only worked with Teslas app. The feds said if Tesla wants to get credit for providing general purpose chargers the chargers need to take regular CC payments and not require any Tesla account or anything. Which is good, but the superchargers never seem to have considered that. Pretty dumb of Tesla really, not to do better. They don't seem to have seriously considered their charging network as a sellable asset, which is pretty stupid really, especially from a techbro culture that should have been keen on that whole first-mover dynamic. There are other problems with the Tesla chargers becoming the standard, especially they don't have enough conductors to support 3 phase AC charging which is beginning to appear to be the natural system in the future.

Teslas used to come with free charging but it's not free anymore. I don't know how it compares to gasoline costs.

EVs so far skate free on the federal gasoline tax and it's a problem, especially because EVs are heavy. The gasoline tax is way too cheap as it is, but still EVs should chip in something. TX is charging $200/yr license fees to EVs which is sort of a good start, but I haven't seen anything proposed at the federal level. The feds are still giving money to EVs, apparently they haven't considered actually charging them money but somebody will have to pay for the roads in the post-ICE future; it's like they don't believe their own propaganda.

[griz]

My state (Virginia) and probably others are starting to add a separate tax for electric vehicles that's supposed to be used for the same purpose as the gas tax.  I don't know if the fed.gov is doing that yet, but after EVs are common enough to not be subsidized I would guess they will.

I read an article in one of the car magazines, Motor Trend I think, that said the cost at charging stations is variable.  It was based on time, but the battery charges much faster from 1/4 "full" to 3/4 full.  The last 1/4 is much more time consuming, so much more expensive.  Thus it would be hard to advertise a KW per dollar price.

[HankB]

On vehicle taxes . . .

Like zahc wrote, TX is charging EVs extra annual registration fees since they're not paying any gasoline tax. Other states are trying GPS tracking and having vehicle owners pay by the mile . . . but the thought of .gov monitoring their every move via GPS tracking doesn't set very well with most folks.

Some people have converted their vehicles to dual-fuel, at least if they live in an area plumbed for natural gas. If they have a hookup (which includes a high pressure compressor) in their garage, they're SUPPOSED to have a meter on that so they can pay motor vehicle taxes, but I understand few do. Some folks with access to used cooking oil (restaurant owners?) have their own systems to filter/purify it for use as biodiesel, but again, if they keep their mouths shut they don't pay fuel taxes. I DID hear about .gov going after some high school or college students who adjusted a diesel car of some sort to run on processed cooking oil - even though it was for some sort of a school-related project, .gov was still upset about them for not paying fuel taxes.

I remember reading about someone who either had or was working on some sort of a filter or process to remove coloring from agricultural fuels so they could undetectably be used in road vehicles, and .gov was unhappy and "investigating."  Don't remember seeing any follow up.

Oh, and NOT ALL GAS TAXES ARE USED FOR THE ROADS. In various places, the road fund is routinely pirated for "other, more pressing needs."   

[dogmush]

In rural FL where there's a lot of farming and folks routinely have big diesel tanks for their tractors and such it's pretty common for them to run their trucks on untaxed "ag" fuel.  I have to imagine it's pretty common in the corn belt too.  It's not like a tax trooper is going to easily dip the tank on a F-250 like they can a semi.

Americans like to avoid taxes if possible, Who'd have thunk it?

[zahc]

On vehicle taxes . . .

Like zahc wrote, TX is charging EVs extra annual registration fees since they're not paying any gasoline tax. Other states are trying GPS tracking and having vehicle owners pay by the mile . . . but the thought of .gov monitoring their every move via GPS tracking doesn't set very well with most folks.

Some people have converted their vehicles to dual-fuel, at least if they live in an area plumbed for natural gas. If they have a hookup (which includes a high pressure compressor) in their garage, they're SUPPOSED to have a meter on that so they can pay motor vehicle taxes, but I understand few do. Some folks with access to used cooking oil (restaurant owners?) have their own systems to filter/purify it for use as biodiesel, but again, if they keep their mouths shut they don't pay fuel taxes. I DID hear about .gov going after some high school or college students who adjusted a diesel car of some sort to run on processed cooking oil - even though it was for some sort of a school-related project, .gov was still upset about them for not paying fuel taxes.

I remember reading about someone who either had or was working on some sort of a filter or process to remove coloring from agricultural fuels so they could undetectably be used in road vehicles, and .gov was unhappy and "investigating."  Don't remember seeing any follow up.

Oh, and NOT ALL GAS TAXES ARE USED FOR THE ROADS. In various places, the road fund is routinely pirated for "other, more pressing needs."   

Maybe you are talking about state fuel taxes?

Federal fuel taxes go to the federal highway fund and then doled back out to the states. It's not nearly enough to cover the cost of maintenance so in practice the roads are largely funded by general taxes.

If they wanted to come up with a better system I don't see a big problem with odometer+vehicle weight. That would most closely track road use and road wear, and would catch EVs. I don't see it as a major privacy issue to report odometer every year.

[dogmush]

1. Report odometer to .gov.
2. drive 200 miles
3. Unplug speed sensor for rest of year.
4. Profit!

[230RN]

One of the original problems with the Tesla chargers was that they only worked with Teslas app. The feds said if Tesla wants to get credit for providing general purpose chargers the chargers need to take regular CC payments and not require any Tesla account or anything. Which is good, but the superchargers never seem to have considered that. Pretty dumb of Tesla really, not to do better. They don't seem to have seriously considered their charging network as a sellable asset, which is pretty stupid really, especially from a techbro culture that should have been keen on that whole first-mover dynamic. There are other problems with the Tesla chargers becoming the standard, especially they don't have enough conductors to support 3 phase AC charging which is beginning to appear to be the natural system in the future.

Teslas used to come with free charging but it's not free anymore. I don't know how it compares to gasoline costs.

EVs so far skate free on the federal gasoline tax and it's a problem, especially because EVs are heavy. The gasoline tax is way too cheap as it is, but still EVs should chip in something. TX is charging $200/yr license fees to EVs which is sort of a good start, but I haven't seen anything proposed at the federal level. The feds are still giving money to EVs, apparently they haven't considered actually charging them money but somebody will have to pay for the roads in the post-ICE future; it's like they don't believe their own propaganda.

("post-ICE" I stumbled on that...  "post-Internal Combustion Engine."  Sorry, just geriatric pld me.)

Agreed with bolding 100% and I was going to add that kind of comment about the Left's characteristic of ignoring real world consequences of their "thinking."

But I wanted to focus on the present-day tax situation.  So thanks, your post was in fact very helpful.And thanks to others; I'm glad I opened that aspect of the discussion.

"Oh, and NOT ALL GAS TAXES ARE USED FOR THE ROADS. In various places, the road fund is routinely pirated for 'other, more pressing needs.'   "

NS,S, to abbreviate a common Sherlock Holmes reference. 

Terry, 230RN

[AZRedhawk44]

Excise tax should be charged for tires.  Not gasoline.

Drive more?  You wear your tires out faster.  More excise tax for you. 

Drive less?  Your tires last longer.  Less excise tax for you.

Drive a light vehicle?  Less wear on the road, your tires are smaller, less excise tax for you.

Drive a heavy vehicle?  More wear on the road, your tires are bigger, more excise tax for you.

Vehicle age or propulsion technology won't matter, just how often you wear out tires and how heavy your rig is.

[dogmush]

Or.....and bear with me here.....we could just drop the tax that is becoming obsolete and not replace it.

Road maintenance could be paid for by diverting funds from projects not relevant to the US. Pakistani Woman's Studiies and Ukrainian social security come to mind.

[Ben]

Or.....and bear with me here.....we could just drop the tax that is becoming obsolete and not replace it.

Road maintenance could be paid for by diverting funds from projects not relevant to the US. Pakistani Woman's Studiies and Ukrainian social security come to mind.

Word.

In theory, I'm not opposed to a gas (or EV or whatever vehicle) tax if it's reasonable and goes directly and 100% to transportation infrastructure. Infrastructure, like national defense, is one of those things I believe government should be (responsibly) spending tax money on.

However, I have yet to see any transparent accounting by our government on where every penny of transportation infrastructure gas taxes are going. Until they can prove they are not spending it elsewhere (which we know they are) I am not only not in favor of raising the gas tax, but think it should be halved.

[Hawkmoon]

Or.....and bear with me here.....we could just drop the tax that is becoming obsolete and not replace it.

Road maintenance could be paid for by diverting funds from projects not relevant to the US. Pakistani Woman's Studiies and Ukrainian social security come to mind.

That's gotta be racist ...

[zahc]

Tax collections and expenditures are generally public information. It's not hard to find where the money goes.

States play various games with their fuel taxes, and it's not always nefarious. Most simply never promised to use the taxes for roads in the first place. Texas spends about 24% of its fuel tax revenue on education, for example.

The use of federal gas taxes is subject to federal law. The politics enter when it comes to who gets the money and how much. My complaints there are generally the money goes to over-building of new roads rather than maintaining existing ones. States should only be allowed to build new roads if they are maintaining their existing roads up to standard.