schiavo in the news, good i think

[thorn]

so on nytimes.com they got an article , they did an autopsy on terri schiavo- looks like they did the right thing pullnig her plug, doctors say she had virtually no hope-----
"Dr. Thogmartin said that recovery was not possible because of the massive brain damage that occurred after Ms. Schiavo collapsed in 1990. Her brain weighed 615 grams at the time of her death on March 31.

"This damage was irreversible," said Dr. Thogmartin. "No amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons.""


this makes me feel better. she is in a much better place now

[stevelyn]

Crow isn't so bad if ya put lots of hotsauce on it.

[Azrael256]

I chatted with my doctor about this when the debate was going on.  He had a brief glance at one of the MRI or CAT or something scans they had done on her brain, and his professional opinion was that she had just enough brain left to breathe.  He said that the parts of her brain that controlled the higher functions were basically jelly.  He thought that maybe she would've had a chance in 10 years or so if the technology was developed to regrow brain cells, but that there was no guarantee she would be the same person at all if it even worked.  His theory was that the damage was so extensive, that regrown brain tissue would set her back to being an infant mentally, and she would have to work up from there.  Sort of like hitting the reset switch.

I watched my grandfather die for seven years after a bad stroke.  He had enough brain left to recognize everyone, and he could *almost* talk, but he had no motor control to speak of (he could barely feed himself), and at his age, had nowhere to go but down.  He indicated to me that he wished the first shot had just killed him, and he used what little control he had to affix the big orange "DNR" sticker to his chart.  We were all very relieved when he finally passed.  According to my sister (I wasn't there when he went), he was fully aware that he was going when it happened, and indicated that he was very happy to be leaving his mangled body behind.  I know I would feel the same way.  I would much rather be stone dead than only half alive.

[thorn]

Crow isn't so bad if ya put lots of hotsauce on it.

i really dont get how someone who makes such a cynical comment thinks, with this new info, that terri should have been kept alive, or that it was osmehow evil to let her die peacefully, finally.

it was really sad people wouldn't let go of her. as if going to Heaven (which supposedly all her "saviors" should believe) would be bad in any way.

PS- thought this was "polite" society.  that was totally rude.
 
if you have a valid debate, let's hear it. otherwise, i had prayed on this, had felt God was really calling Terri home, and am relieved to find medical evidence that shows she really was in very very slim chancve of recovery.

if we religous types can agree that medical practice such as abortion did not come form God, can we not also see that certain life prolonging devices are also averse to God's will?

anyway i didnt mean to get religous about it, i was looking at it from Azrael's point of view.
that must have been incredibly tough for all involved.

[wasrjoe]

Thorn, referencing past posts, I do believe stevelyn thought that they were right in pulling the tube. I gathered that he meant was referrring to the "keep Mrs. Schiavo alive at all costs!" crowd. Correct me if I'm wrong, Steve.

[Guest]

Killing a person by depriving them of food and water is cruel. My father died when we removed his medication. He died within 20 minutes. He didn't linger on for weeks having to use morphine to control the pain.

The moral issues of hastening someone's death is one thing..the way it was done in this case is another.

Why can't we do this to Hussein?

[Old Fud]

Sorry, Barbara, but you are wrong.
 
The method described is one of the few legally and medcially sanctioned means of PEACEFULLY ending a life voluntarily.

My sister had cancer.
The doctors knew it was terminal and predicted it's course over a period of 2 years within 2 weeks of final accuracy.  
The ONE THING they warned my sister of was, "Do NOT let the cancer kill you."
They instructed her to monitor her own quality of life and when it was no longer worth the effort (22 months almost to the day), she was able to enter a Hospice.

There she voluntarily deprived herself.   The hospice was prepared with full medications, glycerins, baths, massages, and services.  
It took not quite 3 weeks.  
She was alert and visiting with us right up til the end, and then she quit breathing.
She was Grateful this outlet was available to her.  So was her family.

Six months later, My uncle entered a hospice and did the same thing -- not because he was dying of a horribly pain inducing cancer, but because he just didn't want to live any more.    Same results.

My biggest concern during this entire Schiavo thing has been the fear that those who were unaware of the process would get up in arms and jeapardize it's continued existence.
 
That would be a true crime against hopelessly sick people.

[jefnvk]

My biggest concern during this entire Schiavo thing has been the fear that those who were unaware of the process would get up in arms and jeapardize it's continued existence.

As happens with most anything sensationalized by the media.

[stevelyn]

wasrjoe,

You are correct. I was refering to the quacks that were advocating keeping her alive and giving the family false hopes of recovery. They were only interested in lining their own pockets. The politicians who weighed in on this did so out of self-interest also.

thorn,

I apologize to you if you felt I was being rude to you. My comments were directed toward the medical frauds and RTL Facists. The autopsy results vindicate Mr. Shiavo's decision.

Steve

[Ray]

Right to die is the ultimate form of self-determination. If we are all more than peons of the ruling class then we must be masters of our own destiny. This may be the only right I consider more fundamental, more self evident in Mr. Thomas' words, than the right to bear arms. If we cannot decide our own course of action, be it self defense or leaving this life, that what would it matter if we did it armed or not?

[Guest]

I'm really sorry about your sister, Fud.

I still disagree with this method of mercy killing, though. Why aren't all the people who feel so strongly about this woman's right to die fighting for it to be legal to do it by a better means?

[LadySmith]

I have two problems with the Schiavo case. The first is that the decision for her death was made by others. The second was the way she was killed. If any of us did a dog that way, we'd probably be behind bars.

[TarpleyG]

Why aren't all the people who feel so strongly about this woman's right to die fighting for it to be legal to do it by a better means?

I think we are and have been.  Tough fight when you go against the conservative, right to live crowd though.  A shame that we can realize legitimate pain and suffering in an animal and let them go quickly but we cannot do the same for a human being.  Jack Kevorkian was on to something.  Selfish, really.

Greg

[Sean Smith]

Isn't it funny how people who had loved ones who were still lucid who died this way don't object to it, and the people who died that way didn't object to it when they were dying that way, but people with no firsthand experience of it rave about how sadistic it is?  



Seems suspiciously like willful denial of reality.  Right up there with folks claiming you can recover if half your brain mass goes away.

[griz]

but people with no firsthand experience of it rave about how sadistic it is?

Nonsense. Everybody has been thirsty. Imagine being as thirsty as you have ever been, then going another week without a drink. If you think that is peaceful we will have to disagree.

[Sean Smith]

but people with no firsthand experience of it rave about how sadistic it is?

Nonsense. Everybody has been thirsty. Imagine being as thirsty as you have ever been, then going another week without a drink. If you think that is peaceful we will have to disagree.

The people who died of it thought it was peaceful.  Unless you think they were lying, along with Old Fud et. al.

[SteveS]

Why aren't all the people who feel so strongly about this woman's right to die fighting for it to be legal to do it by a better means?

I think we are and have been.  Tough fight when you go against the conservative, right to live crowd though.  A shame that we can realize legitimate pain and suffering in an animal and let them go quickly but we cannot do the same for a human being.  Jack Kevorkian was on to something.  Selfish, really.

Greg

I consider myself a right to life person who also supports a right to die.  I don't think that these positions have to be mutually exclusive.  I would like to be able to make that decision and not have it made by someone that may or may not have my best interests in mind.  

Kevorkian was on to something.  Too bad he was such a kook.  It also didn't help his position when it was later found that not all his "patients" were terminal.

[K Frame]

"Nonsense. Everybody has been thirsty. Imagine being as thirsty as you have ever been, then going another week without a drink."

To my way of thinking (backed up by neurophysiologists or whatever they're called), Ms. Shiavo never knew that she was hungry or thirsty. The parts of her brain that registered those feelings (along with sight), were destroyed in the original incident.

Ms. Shiavo ceased being Ms. Shiavo 15 years ago when large parts of her brain suffered irreversible damage. What was left was a shell. The person had departed.

[Guest]

If she had no feeling, why was she given morphine?

[K Frame]

Morphine and other opiates have uses other than as palliatives.

But, my guess is that the morphine was given as a prophylactic -- just in case she did feel any pain -- the same reason that terminally ill, but comatose patients, are given morphine.

Given the autopsy report, it was unnecessary.

[griz]

I agree with you Mike that she probably didn't have enough consciousness to know what was happening, but that doesn't escuse the death by dehydration. By the same token, if Mr. Shiavo had suffocated her, the facts proved in the autopsy would not absolve his guilt.

[Sean Smith]

By the same token, if Mr. Shiavo had suffocated her, the facts proved in the autopsy would not absolve his guilt.

An allegation that has no evidence to support it.  I could just as easily say that it can't be proven that YOU didn't suffocate her.  So what?  You can't prove that I didn't kill her with untraceable poison, either.  Whoop dee do!

If she had no feeling, why was she given morphine?

Who cares?  We know her brain was gone.  Her head was full of bloody empty space when they cracked it open!  What's left?

[Old Fud]

Let us not forget that the husband had durable power of attorney for health care.
That means he was speaking with her voice.
SHE gave him that power when she was in full control of her senses.  When she did, she was stating that HE, more than anybody else on earth, knew her mind and her wishes, and that he was empowered to make life and death decisions in her name when she was not able to do so herself.

That's why her parents had no say in the matter.
And that's why the courts were powerless to intervene.
The law was totally clear on the subject.  

Let us also be clear on another point.
The people that volunteered for this kind of end have all stated it is a pleasant way to go.   The people who accompany them say the same thing.
The medical staffs that administer this process are kind loving people.
It is a thoroughly established and accepted practice throughout the country.
It was NOT CRUEL!!!!!

We can argue the morality of suicide and that of "accomplices" to suicide another day.
We can also discuss the possibility of other, quicker, more convenient means of Self-termination as well.   I'd be all in favor of such --- Soylent Green not-withstanding.

As you can see, I have strong feelings on the subject.
I state them -- I don't mean to punch you in the face with them.

Still Friends?

Fud

[XLMiguel]

The Schivo situation was pretty sad, and the amount of 3rd party interferance and grandstanding was truly disgusting and most inappropriate..

All other stuff aside, Hospice is a wonderful organization.  If you or a loved one is ever in such a circumstance, I hope you will look into them.  They seem to find a way of "death with dignity" that is confortable for most all.  They are most worthy of your support.  BT, DT, with two family members.

My $.02 - I hope to go peacefully in my sleep at a ripe old age, but my father & grandfather checked out in their early 70's of pancreatic cancer (this could be a 'clue').  Though there will always be one more gun in the house than anyone knows about (and talk is cheap-), I hope that if I'm ever in dire straights, I won't be abandoned to the medical establishment; and if I can't find a friend to help me 'get out of town', I can get into Hospice or make a call to the Hemlock society.  YMMV.