Authoritarian Scum

[roo_ster]

This is the public school system, where everyone has to be taken.  Private schools don't do that.  So it's unfair to compare the two and conclude that, based on the end product, public schools are all crap.  They are required to take the kids that private schools can reject.

I haven't seen the comparison done, but I strongly suspect that if you compare public schools to only private schools that accept any student and expel only for the same reasons government schools expel, you would find that public schools actually do slightly better on average at providing an education.

Not every private/charter school can cheery-pick.  I interviewed for a position at one before I took my present job.  They got the dregs from the district, one step above "alternative" school.  They do well by their kids and squeeze the best performance they can from them.

One thing was funny.  She said that she thought my background was terrific to be the head of her science dept (physics/history double & 3 years Army).  I said, "Well, I lack a teaching certification."  She replied, "We had a some teachers with degrees in education and who were certified.  I fired them within a month of opening the doors, as they were worthless.  I want someone who is sharp, knows their material, and has enthusiasm.  I can get them rolling and teach them the basics of teaching and then they run with it."


Garrison Keillor lied to us all.  Lake Wobegone is a fiction.  Half the kids in school of of below-median intelligence.  Even if ther were no other problems in some ids' lives, this fact will see to it that some kids are left behind.


A couple of good friends (couple) both have degrees in Ed, one with a MA, the other getting a MA.  One currently teaches in a large pub school dist and is being prepped for a principal's job.  The other has in the past.

They are home-schooling their kids to keep them out of the hands of the school district.  They consider most of the school day in a public school to be wasted time.  The ycan keep up with pub school standards with just two hours at home per day.  Also, the policy is to "teach to the middle."  Thing is, there are so many anchor babies of illegals with no desire for education, "the middle" sinks lower every year.

[Paddy]

I haven't seen the comparison done, but I strongly suspect that if you compare public schools to only private schools that accept any student and expel only for the same reasons government schools expel, you would find that public schools actually do slightly better on average at providing an education.

Well that's total bullshit.  Not only do private schools produce way superior results, they do it a a fraction of the cost of public education.

[De Selby]

I haven't seen the comparison done, but I strongly suspect that if you compare public schools to only private schools that accept any student and expel only for the same reasons government schools expel, you would find that public schools actually do slightly better on average at providing an education.

Well that's total bullshit.  Not only do private schools produce way superior results, they do it a a fraction of the cost of public education.

Reading is essential-the comparison was that private schools can exclude students who aren't likely to perform, and that they do.

You can't accurately compare public to private schools without accounting for that.

[ilbob]

The most interesting angle of this appears to be the religious freedom issue-other than that I'm not sure what the beef is.  States pass standards for raising children.  Not sure how much sense it makes to say that states are fine regulating neglect only if it's physical, but can't set any standards to prevent having a kid crippled by a non-education.

Is there any evidence that home schooled children are less well educated than public schooled children? If there is, that evidence is being kept very quiet.

[Sheng_Pao]

They may force parents to send their kids to public school, but they won't be able to stop parents from teaching their kids to think for themselves and refuse to accept some of what they teach at school, although on the outside, they may pretend to go along with the system so they can pass and get the hell out.

[Perd Hapley]

good work ethic

punishment for bad behavior

instruction in manners

There are a range of government regulations designed to hit these points squarely.  For one, education standards-already existing to some degree, and proposed ones like in the OP.  Punishment for bad behavior and poor manners is effected through laws that impose responsibility on parents for misdeeds of children, and criminal neglect laws-if your kid is acting out all the time, you can bet someone will take a hard look at your parenting and possibly invoke any of the laundry list of child protection options (that was the genesis of the current home school case, it seems.)

Not even close.        You're talking about repercussions from actual, past crimes.  If anything, education requirements work in the opposite fashion.  Schools; public, private, or home; must be approved prior to and during the process.  The process itself is inspected and controlled by the state.  The authorities do not wait until Johnny tries to apply at Wal-Mart and can't fill out his application.  Nor do they respond at that juncture.  Instead, they get all up in the process.  And that is statism, rather than justice. 

Now, you may ask, do I want education laws to work that way?  Of course not.  Johnny's inability to read doesn't infringe anyone's rights. 

Divorce-not favored.  There is no reason why it has to be as costly and difficult to go through a divorce as it is; divorce is disfavored in almost every jurisdiction by law, and in divorce, guess what happens to parental authority? It comes squarely within judicial oversight.  So yeah, I'd say that barriers to divorce and the conduct of divorce proceedings are a very good example of the kind of regulation mentioned in the OP.

I don't know where you live, but I was talking about the U.S.  In my country, kids are born and raised with no marriage at all.  And you know what?  There's no law against that.  In my country, I have no problem finding kids who's parents are divorced.  The courts themselves set it up.  Do they have a say in who has custody?  Of course.  But where is this magical part of the U.S. where judges say, "No, sorry, you have to stay married; you've got kids"?  Even if you could come up with some cases, you can't deny that divorce among parents is extremely common.  More on divorce to follow.

 

I think the fact that you are reduced here to one line declarations in place of reasoned argument has something to do with it.

The burden of proof is on the one making outlandish comparisons between being locked in a dungeon, and not being learned how to read good and stuff.  Not to mention your goofy claims I just dealt with.  So, you go ahead and come up with some reasoned arguments, and I'll respond with the same.

I notice that you don't explain how laws discouraging divorce are somehow not "bankrupt and authoritarian."

Well, I was coming down with a fever, so forgive me if I didn't finish responding to your whole post.  I spent all of Sunday just sleeping and watching a movie, and if I hadn't stayed home from work today, I wouldn't be responding at all right now. 

I've actually grown ambivalent with regards to whether govt. should recognize marriage at all, which you could easily see by looking up some of my comments about homosexual marriage.  So, maybe divorce laws are statist and fit in the same category as these other issues; I haven't made up my mind. 

In any case, even if the divorce laws do not belong in the same category, even if divorce laws are the proper purview of the state, that would not rescue your view from being dominant, yet ludicrous. 

[MrRezister]

States pass standards for raising children.  Not sure how much sense it makes to say that states are fine regulating neglect only if it's physical, but can't set any standards to prevent having a kid crippled by a non-education.

Homeschooled children still have to pass state-approved tests.  As long as the standards are the same, I can't see why parents shouldn't be trusted with educating their children, unless the state is afraid that the children are missing out on something not covered in the curriculum?  And anything not covered in the curriculum shouldn't be the concern of the state in the first place.  This is an example of nannystatism-by-force. 
"If We can't teach your children, no one can."

[Perd Hapley]

Mr. Rezister and others,

Some of shootinstudents comments are directed to my view that government should not have any say in how or if children are educated.  I don't think he approves of this ruling, either, and I don't think he's opposed to home-schooling.  But then I didn't read all of his comments in the thread. 

[WeedWhacker]

Homeschooled children still have to pass state-approved tests.  As long as the standards are the same, I can't see why parents shouldn't be trusted with educating their children, unless the state is afraid that the children are missing out on something not covered in the curriculum?  And anything not covered in the curriculum shouldn't be the concern of the state in the first place.  This is an example of nannystatism-by-force.
"If We can't teach your children, no one can."

I'm not sure which state you're referring to, but it certainly doesn't apply to all states. I was never required to pass "state-approved tests", though my parents had myself and siblings tested for years at their own expense for ammunition to throw in the local school board's face when they got off their collective asses to harass my family again for encouraging truancy or whatever was included on their long list of "things to harrass homeschooling families about".

As for the matter of tests containing subject matter which may not have been taught, or at least not taught from the state-approved perspective, yes, that is a concern.

[RoadKingLarry]

Story says 166,000 home schooled kids. if you figure and average of 2 kids per household that would still be 80,000 some odd parents(only one parent as primary home teacher) at a minimum available to make a trip to Sacremento I'd bet if they would make an effor they could put 100,000 warm bodies on the steps of the Capitol building. Now that might get Arnolds attention.

Of course it won't happen, but I still have my fanatsies that some day people will stand up to their government like they should.

[Warren]

I send my kids to The Derek Zoolander Center For Children Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too.

[RoadKingLarry]

I send my kids to The Derek Zoolander Center For Children Who Can't Read Good And Wanna Learn To Do Other Stuff Good Too.

That would also be known as UC Berkley wouldn't it?