Author Topic: Army takes HK416s from special unit  (Read 2091 times)

280plus

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Army takes HK416s from special unit
« on: March 11, 2008, 04:13:57 AM »
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Army takes HK416s from special unit

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Mar 10, 2008 17:04:44 EDT

The Army has stripped the Asymmetric Warfare Group of its weapon of choice  the Heckler & Koch 416  saying that its mission requires the unique outfit to carry the standard issue M4 carbine.

The decision reverses a policy that allowed the AWG to buy 416s instead of carrying M4s when it was established three years ago to help senior Army leaders find new tactics and technologies to make soldiers more lethal in combat.

Members of the AWG have declined to comment on the issue, but sources in the community told Army Times that the unit fought to keep its several hundred 416s, arguing that they outperform the Armys M4 and require far less maintenance.

In a response to a March 6 Army Times query, the Army acknowledged initial approval of the AWGs move to the 416.

The AWG is empowered to procure, on a limited basis, select non-standard equipment to assist in identifying capability gaps and advise on the development of future requirements. To this end, the Asymmetric Warfare Group did purchase H&K 416 rifles, said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Martin Downie.

The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures. In this capacity, the use of the standard issue M4 is required. In support of this mission set, the decision was made to transition to the M4 and the AWG is now turning in its H&K rifles.

This is the latest round of controversy surrounding the M4 since late November, when the weapon finished last in an Army reliability test against several other carbines.

The M4 suffered more stoppages than the combined number of jams by the three other competitors  the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USAs Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the H&K 416.

Army weapons officials agreed to perform the dust test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army Special Forces units to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Since then, Coburn has questioned the Armys plans to spend more than $300 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009 rather than considering newer and possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.

Army officials have downplayed the test results, maintaining that soldiers using the M4 in combat praised the weapon in a recent study by the Center for Naval Analysis.

But this isnt the first time the M4s performance has come under fire.

U.S. Special Operations Command decided nearly four years ago that it wanted a better weapon than the M4. After a competition, it awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace all of the commands M4s.

But even prior to USSOCOMs decision, the Armys Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that its piston operating system reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.

The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Weapon experts say the M4s system of blowing gas directly into the receiver of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication and causes excessive wear on parts.

The AWG followed Deltas example when it stood up in March 2005 to advise the Armys senior leadership on how to identify and counter emerging threats on the battlefield. With Army approval, the unit bought several hundred 416s for its members to carry when they deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots.

Many senior sergeants in the AWG were angered that soldiers in the unit had to turn in their 416s, a process that began last fall, said a U.S. Military officer with knowledge the special operations and AWG communities.

They were outraged, he told Army Times. Its a reduction in capability. Its a waste of money that was already spent, and it makes the job more difficult since [the M4] is much more maintenance-intensive.
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HankB

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 04:36:32 AM »
Three reasons come to mind . . .

1. Because "The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures . . . " they have to be able to tell regular soldiers how to keep inferior weapons working.

2. Jealousy among the regular troops and their commanders.

3. Some REMF was bought off.
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Manedwolf

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2008, 05:07:26 AM »
That's sad when I can be better armed with a more reliable weapon than one of our frontline special operations groups.  undecided

HankB

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2008, 05:35:00 AM »
That's sad when I can be better armed with a more reliable weapon than one of our frontline special operations groups.  undecided
Sad that they can't have better guns, not so sad that we can . . . even though "Da Switch" is expensive. ($200 to Uncle Sam, $$$$ to the seller.)

"...that standing army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."   - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper #29



Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Manedwolf

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2008, 05:40:36 AM »
That's sad when I can be better armed with a more reliable weapon than one of our frontline special operations groups.  undecided
Sad that they can't have better guns, not so sad that we can . . . even though "Da Switch" is expensive. ($200 to Uncle Sam, $$$$ to the seller.)

"...that standing army can never be formidable to the liberties of the people, while there is a large body of citizens, little if at all inferior to them in the use of arms."   - Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Paper #29

Oh, well, yeah, I just mean that the people who are going into harm's way should be getting the best tool for the job, whatever the cost. I know about logistics and supply, but isn't this this is a special operations group, not just boots-on-ground infantry? Besides, AFAIK, the 416 is half "standard", anyway, since you can put the upper on any AR lower, correct?

Why the hell are they bothering with the M16/M4 as a modular weapons system if they can't choose appropriate uppers for different tasks? Isn't that what the 416 is, a gas-piston G36-derivative upper that uses standard mags?

Here's how I see it:

Infantry w/armorer and lots of spare parts: Standard lower/upper combination for M-4 Carbine or M16A4, standard mags.
Special operations going unsupported into areas with lots of dust and sand: Standard lower, HK 416 gas piston upper, standard mags.

Does that not make sense? Huh? Yeah, I know the training for each is different, field stripping and all, but...sand, direct-impingement, they already know the M4 isn't as reliable in that environment.

Chris

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2008, 06:01:06 AM »
Sounds to me like someone with some political motivation has just made a decision, instead of basing it on the realities of the weapons.  It's better for our troops to have an American made weapon, not some suerior foreign made weapon.  Then again, our gun laws are killing our domestic firearms industry, and dumb purchasing policies by our military are resulting in production of inferior weapons.

Tell Congress to ignore steroids in baseball for a while, and have some public hearings on this issue.

"General, why are you insisting that our boys and girls have inferior weapons?  What's the benefit?"

Warren

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2008, 02:07:46 PM »
It looks like  these guys


have been promoted and are now making decisions about which weapons get to be used.

AZRedhawk44

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2008, 02:29:47 PM »
Question:

Doesn't the additional equipment on a 416 upper increase the weight of the rifle to be comparable to an M14?
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lupinus

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Re: Army takes HK416s from special unit
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2008, 03:29:33 PM »
If it increases the weight a few pounds so what?

You still have a pretty light weapon.  Take cue from the Romans, train with double weight weapons so actual battle weapons handle effortlessly and for long periods of time with little effort.

The M16/M4 platform is getting up there and while good for the time wasn't a great platform to begin with.  It needs a lot of maintenance especially compared to some of the modern offerings.  We've been using these things how long?  There have been some upgrades sure but you can only upgrade so much.

Soldiers praised their M4's?  Have they really had a chance to compare?  A 16 year old praises his first car regardless if its a BMW or a Neon too. 

It's time for a new weapon, start phasing them out and phasing something new and better in.
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