Author Topic: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?  (Read 1832 times)

cosine

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Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« on: August 14, 2008, 09:23:37 AM »
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121858688764535107.html?mod=rss_opinion_main#


Quote
For Most People,
College Is a Waste of Time
By CHARLES MURRAY
August 13, 2008; Page A17

Imagine that America had no system of post-secondary education, and you were a member of a task force assigned to create one from scratch. One of your colleagues submits this proposal:

First, we will set up a single goal to represent educational success, which will take four years to achieve no matter what is being taught. We will attach an economic reward to it that seldom has anything to do with what has been learned. We will urge large numbers of people who do not possess adequate ability to try to achieve the goal, wait until they have spent a lot of time and money, and then deny it to them. We will stigmatize everyone who doesn't meet the goal. We will call the goal a "BA."

You would conclude that your colleague was cruel, not to say insane. But that's the system we have in place.

Finding a better way should be easy. The BA acquired its current inflated status by accident. Advanced skills for people with brains really did get more valuable over the course of the 20th century, but the acquisition of those skills got conflated with the existing system of colleges, which had evolved the BA for completely different purposes.

Outside a handful of majors -- engineering and some of the sciences -- a bachelor's degree tells an employer nothing except that the applicant has a certain amount of intellectual ability and perseverance. Even a degree in a vocational major like business administration can mean anything from a solid base of knowledge to four years of barely remembered gut courses.

The solution is not better degrees, but no degrees. Young people entering the job market should have a known, trusted measure of their qualifications they can carry into job interviews. That measure should express what they know, not where they learned it or how long it took them. They need a certification, not a degree.

The model is the CPA exam that qualifies certified public accountants. The same test is used nationwide. It is thorough -- four sections, timed, totaling 14 hours. A passing score indicates authentic competence (the pass rate is below 50%). Actual scores are reported in addition to pass/fail, so that employers can assess where the applicant falls in the distribution of accounting competence. You may have learned accounting at an anonymous online university, but your CPA score gives you a way to show employers you're a stronger applicant than someone from an Ivy League school.

The merits of a CPA-like certification exam apply to any college major for which the BA is now used as a job qualification. To name just some of them: criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education. Such majors accounted for almost two-thirds of the bachelor's degrees conferred in 2005. For that matter, certification tests can be used for purely academic disciplines. Why not present graduate schools with certifications in microbiology or economics -- and who cares if the applicants passed the exam after studying in the local public library?

Certification tests need not undermine the incentives to get a traditional liberal-arts education. If professional and graduate schools want students who have acquired one, all they need do is require certification scores in the appropriate disciplines. Students facing such requirements are likely to get a much better liberal education than even our most elite schools require now.

Certification tests will not get rid of the problems associated with differences in intellectual ability: People with high intellectual ability will still have an edge. Graduates of prestigious colleges will still, on average, have higher certification scores than people who have taken online courses -- just because prestigious colleges attract intellectually talented applicants.

But that's irrelevant to the larger issue. Under a certification system, four years is not required, residence is not required, expensive tuitions are not required, and a degree is not required. Equal educational opportunity means, among other things, creating a society in which it's what you know that makes the difference. Substituting certifications for degrees would be a big step in that direction.

The incentives are right. Certification tests would provide all employers with valuable, trustworthy information about job applicants. They would benefit young people who cannot or do not want to attend a traditional four-year college. They would be welcomed by the growing post-secondary online educational industry, which cannot offer the halo effect of a BA from a traditional college, but can realistically promise their students good training for a certification test -- as good as they are likely to get at a traditional college, for a lot less money and in a lot less time.

Certification tests would disadvantage just one set of people: Students who have gotten into well-known traditional schools, but who are coasting through their years in college and would score poorly on a certification test. Disadvantaging them is an outcome devoutly to be wished.

No technical barriers stand in the way of evolving toward a system where certification tests would replace the BA. Hundreds of certification tests already exist, for everything from building code inspectors to advanced medical specialties. The problem is a shortage of tests that are nationally accepted, like the CPA exam.

But when so many of the players would benefit, a market opportunity exists. If a high-profile testing company such as the Educational Testing Service were to reach a strategic decision to create definitive certification tests, it could coordinate with major employers, professional groups and nontraditional universities to make its tests the gold standard. A handful of key decisions could produce a tipping effect. Imagine if Microsoft announced it would henceforth require scores on a certain battery of certification tests from all of its programming applicants. Scores on that battery would acquire instant credibility for programming job applicants throughout the industry.

An educational world based on certification tests would be a better place in many ways, but the overarching benefit is that the line between college and noncollege competencies would be blurred. Hardly any jobs would still have the BA as a requirement for a shot at being hired. Opportunities would be wider and fairer, and the stigma of not having a BA would diminish.

Most important in an increasingly class-riven America: The demonstration of competency in business administration or European history would, appropriately, take on similarities to the demonstration of competency in cooking or welding. Our obsession with the BA has created a two-tiered entry to adulthood, anointing some for admission to the club and labeling the rest as second-best.

Here's the reality: Everyone in every occupation starts as an apprentice. Those who are good enough become journeymen. The best become master craftsmen. This is as true of business executives and history professors as of chefs and welders. Getting rid of the BA and replacing it with evidence of competence -- treating post-secondary education as apprenticeships for everyone -- is one way to help us to recognize that common bond.

Mr. Murray is the W.H. Brady Scholar at the American Enterprise Institute. This essay is adapted from his forthcoming book, "Real Education: Four Simple Truths for Bringing America's Schools Back to Reality" (Crown Forum).


I think Mr. Murray makes some good points. Use a standardized measure of competency as the basis for hiring, instead of focusing on whether or not the applicant has that magical piece of paper. Plus, like he said, that would give those without a degree but with the necessary skills the ability to be given a position over someone with a degree but without the necessary skills. It boils down to a standardized measure of competency, regardless of academic history.

On the other hand, I do somewhat agree with the arguments that the "soft" courses; English, history, languages, philosophy, etc. make one a more well rounded person and a better thinking individual. However, the way I see it those that are driven to become a well rounded person will study those subjects for that purpose, to improve themselves, and those that aren't interested, will not. So, instead of forcing a traditional college undergrad seeking a traditional BA to take those general courses, replace the BA with certification, and those that would have been interested in those general courses will still seek out that subject matter themselves to learn it.
Andy

Dntsycnt

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2008, 09:32:12 AM »
Sounds great to me.  I'll be interested to see the discussion on this.

charby

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2008, 09:48:00 AM »
Never happen, too many members of the good old boy club in higher education.

Makes sense to me what the author was getting at.



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41magsnub

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2008, 09:56:10 AM »
I do not disagree with anything in that article.  My only concern is that the certification exams must be hard or unique enough that actual knowledge is required as opposed to memorization. 

I have a bad taste in my mouth still from the "Paper Microsoft Certified Systems Engineers".  There were folks that had this supposed high end certification that had never so much as worked on a network before.  I've interviewed lots of them since a local college was punching them out like crazy using exam crams and whatnot.  These folks passed all the exams but could not draw a simple small network for me or do basic troubleshooting.

Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2008, 09:59:12 AM »
I agree with Charby.  There are too many entrenched people with strong interests in maintaining the current system.  The certification system would be far better than what we have now.  But pragmatically, that's utterly irrelevant.

MechAg94

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2008, 10:10:27 AM »
My Dad worked in union and was a journeyman and then a foreman later.  According to him, he ran into plenty of lazy and incompetent people who were still journeyman.  I think your system could work, but would still fall into all the same problems only instead of looking at what school they went to and their GPA, you would be looking at who they apprenticed with, what company, what work they did to learn the trade, etc.  IMO, it just shifts the problems around. 

In general, it just sounds to me like you dislike the environment where everyone and their dog seems to think they have to go to college when in many cases, real world experience at entry level would be much more valuable.  In many fields I agree.  In others I don't.  Some fields like engineering, IMO, really need that broad education and way of thinking to get a basis for starting out.  I do agree that young engineers need more mentor ship and training under older engineers than most companies do these days. 

We recently lost a DCS and PLC programming guy who was a genius with control systems IMO.  He didn't have a degree from what I knew.  He started out doing that work out on offshore rigs and moved into the chemical industry.  I know he made a good bit more than I did working for us, but he said the company he wen to just made him an obscene offer he just couldn't refuse.  Anyway, our little plant runs pretty smooth these days in large part because of his work.
“It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones.”  ― Calvin Coolidge

Azrael256

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2008, 01:23:32 PM »
Quote
The merits of a CPA-like certification exam apply to any college major for which the BA is now used as a job qualification. To name just some of them: criminal justice, social work, public administration and the many separate majors under the headings of business, computer science and education.

I tend not to pay much attention to people who cannot tell the difference between a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Science.

Tallpine

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2008, 05:12:59 PM »
Yeah, but kids would miss out on four years of drunken partying  rolleyes
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BridgeRunner

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2008, 05:13:49 PM »
I have a better solution: Standards.

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2008, 06:29:55 PM »
I have a better solution: Standards.

How do you know if a candidate meets the standard without a method to measure their skill/performance/whatever?
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Desertdog

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2008, 06:58:51 PM »
I do not believe everybody should go to college, but they do need training in something, preferrably in something they like to do.
My grandsone John, always wanted to be an auto mechanic.  He went to UTI for 1 1/2 to to 2 years and he can get a job anytime, anywhere.  But thats him, several of his friends went to UTI, but they are not good mechanics and so it was a waste of time and money for them.

My son spent 8 years in the Marines and when he got out, went to work for a government contractor doing something he did in the service.  He told me the other day that there were people applying for the same job with more experience and school learning, but he was a veteran, and they weren't, which got him the job.

BridgeRunner

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Re: Replace the post-secondary education BA with certification?
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2008, 08:28:16 PM »
I have a better solution: Standards.

How do you know if a candidate meets the standard without a method to measure their skill/performance/whatever?

I don't.  I think colleges and universities should be required, in order to maintain accreditation, implement more stringent testing, pre-admission, before being permitted to register for certain classes, before being permitted to pass classes, and before being permitted to graduate.  The testing should be developed at a department level and submitted to evaluation to scholars in the field as well as people skilled in composing good tests.  Grading standards should be, well, standardized, across each department.  For primary and secondary schools, such testing is generally a waste of time.  For post-secondary institutions, it could be very valuable. 

If you can't make a 1200 on the SAT, you shouldn't be in a university.  If you don't know what the word "psychology" or "biochemistry" or "late antiquity" means, then you shouldn't be taking a class in psychology or biochem or late antiquity.  You should be in the library, familiarizing yourself with the topic enough that you qualified to take a university level class in it. If you can't write a well-constructed essay that addresses several important topics within the context of the methodology of the discipline you've been studying, you shouldn't get a 2.0 or better. 

Colleges shouldn't be places people go to learn what a sentence is.
Colleges should be places where people can take endless round of intro courses, the first week of which are often literally providing a definition of what the field is. 
Colleges shouldn't be places where people go to study just enough to pass some ludicrously easy tests and then move on.

I don't think college should be a place for breaking people either.  If colleges weren't so crowded with incompetents, there would be a lot more time and energy for the faculty and staff to devote to cultivating the actual students through their intellectual growth.