Author Topic: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?  (Read 1195 times)

damien

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No, this is not a cop-bashing thread.  I am trying to develop a documented counterargument of the well-known anti argument that goes something like this:  "Civilians shouldn't be able to own/carry guns like cops because they are not as well trained".

OK, then, how well trained are they?

Cops get all sorts of training before they get a beat, that is true.  But their training must include so much these days:  All the relevant laws they need to be able to enforce, how to write reports, how to do field sobriety checks, how to search prisoners, how to interrogate without breaking the law, how to drive their vehicle in an agressive but safe manner, how to use the mace, how to use the radio, how to use the billy club, how to use the taser, how to take fingerprints, how to take photographs, how to detain people.  The list goes on and on.  How the gun works and the laws of deadly force have to be a small percentage of this.

So, to anyone who knows about cop training, how much do they get?  What do they learn?  How much range time/shots on the range?  Anyone know?  Thank you in advance.

Grandpa Shooter

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2008, 04:30:29 PM »
I can not speak for all the law enforcement agencies in the country.  My knowledge comes from being a Range Safety Officer at a large Metropolitan public shooting range.  We had law enforcement officers coming from all the surrounding agencies who needed to qualify for the annual recert.  After striking up conversations with them and watching them shoot, I realized that many of them had never taken their firearm out of the holster in many months.  Further conversation revealed that the majority of the agencies only supplied 50 rounds a month for practice, and only if the officer came to the academy range.  Most opted to not use the agency ammo and came out to the public range.

Their training for regular "beat" officers consisted of handing them a Glock, ammo, and pointing to the target and saying "shoot it,"  The officers I talked with had gotten no further tactical training, survival training or other specialized training.  My personal experience was that only the highly motivated did any real practice or sought any further training,  since it would be on their own time and their own dime. 

I ended up working with a fair number of the ones who came to the range, explaing ballistics, function of the firearm, and giving them pointers on how to improve.  Some of the more motivated ones went out to my favorite spots and worked on my own targets and regimen with me.  They all said they learned more that way then they ever did at the academy.

The Annoyed Man

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2008, 05:29:03 PM »
I've been through some of the training, post-academy, while I was a prosecutor.  I'll give you my examples.  I did laser simulator towork shoot/no shoot encounters, escalation of the use of force, etc.  It was a 30 minute session, and was graded on reaction time, decision making, and accuracy.  Sorry I can't tell you how the points were broken down or awarded.  Passing score was 80.  I scored 94 (I tended to talk more than I should have, and lost points for going to a gun against an opponent instead of non-lethal/pepper spray.)

Live fire was done in stages.  The department I worked with had several courses of fire, which depended on the assignmentof the officer and the weapon involved.  In other words, they had courses for off-duty, back-up gun, administration/station, detective, patrol, and SOG (SWAT).  The courses of fire were designed around the duties of the officers, with some variences depending on the duties.  For example, the narcs I worked with were detectives, but were required to shoot detective, patrol (vehicle involved stages) and SWAT (becuase of their involvement on raids).  Long story short, I shot detective.  It was an unlimited number of rounds.  Hot range.  The shooter was responsible for keeping the weapon operating by reloading mags and the gun as appropriate, except for the mandatory relaod stages.  It was 12 stages, each timed, various distances.  Let me try and remember...
1.  Draw and fire strong hand only, 8 feet. 1 target  2 hits required.  1 second.
2.  Draw and fire weak hand only, 8 feet.  1 target.  2 hits equired.  1.5 second.
3.  Draw and fire at two targets, 8 feet.  2 hits each required.  2.5 seconds
3.  From ready position at 15 feet, 4 hits required.  1.5 seconds.
5 and 6.  Fail to stop drill at 15 feet.  2 body, 1 head.  Each hands only.  2 seconds for each hand, starting with the draw.
7.  21 feet.  Draw and fire while moving to cover.  Tactical reload.  Engage second target from cover.  2 hits each target.  10 seconds.
8.  50 feet.  Move to barricade at 25 feet.  Engage three targets from cover.  2 hits per target.  10 seconds.
9.  Start at 25 feet.  Advance to 15 feet firing at 2 targets, lateral 15 feet firing at 2 targets, retreat 15 feet firing at 2 targets.  6 hits per target required.  20 seconds.
10.  25 feet.  Three targets.  Draw and engage while moving to cover at 50 foot line.  Take cover, reload if needed, engage any targets still "standing" from cover. 2 hits per target.
12.  Draw and fire at 50 feet.  Two targets, 2 hits per.  5 seconds.

Notes:  After each target was down (the targets turned when time was up), the shooter ws to cover the target and move laterally from the shooting position.  Holster only when the "clear" shouts were heard. 
Also, note that teh requirements were for a minimum of 2 hits per target to "pass" in most stages.  They teach officers to fire three shots, not double tap, to increase hit percentages and also increase the odds of stopping the opponent in those first three shots.
There have been two officer involved shootings since this system was put in place, mixing simulators and live fire, and teaching three shots "bursts" if you will.  One was in a fight for the officer's weapon.  One shot was fired and ended the fight, bullet to the chest.  Second was a man with a gun call.  Officer approaching front of house when a man with a rifle ran onto the porch and brought the rifle up at the officer.  The officer fired three shots as he went to cover.   As best as can be told, the first shot hit center of the suspect's sternum, the next two missed because the suspect dropped like a rock.  All three shots would have been in a six inch circle.  Audio tape from an open mike of another officer showed all three shots were fired in under a second, the fourth shot on the tape was the suspect's SKS.  Both cases were presented to grand jury (SOP in my county) with no indictments returned.
Duty weapons for them are Glock 22 or 23.  Qualifying is quarterly.  In the warm weather months (March through October) the outdoor range is open for officer practice four days a month.  Ammunition is available to officers at no cost.

Hope all of this helps.

Monkeyleg

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #3 on: September 18, 2008, 06:05:51 PM »
Chris thanks for the in-depth reply.

With a few variations, it sounds like the course of fire and the use of force classes aren't much different than Massad Ayoob's Lethal Force Institute classes.

I've talked to cops shooting at the range, and they complain about how few of their fellow officers practice except for the two or three times a year they have to qualify.

I've also heard people make remarks about how the old generation of officers were more knowledgeable about guns and were more likely to be "gun folks." Anything to back up those claims?

209

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2008, 11:03:46 PM »
Firearms Instructor for a small department-

Currently, we have 15 certified officers.

We shoot twice a year with handguns.  One of those days at the range amounts to about an hour or two of discussion on use-of-force, new changes to various laws, and a review of firearm laws.  Then, about 4-5 hours of shooting not including loading times, breaks, and target changes and scoring.  The other day is mostly shooting, so it's about 6-7 hours.

We also do a low-light/no-light course once a year- that amounts to probably 4 more hours.

So, actually shooting with the handgun is about 10- 12 hours a year daytime and 4-hrs of the low-light/no-light stuff.  I work the CT POST mandated qualification test into the day.  POST has a minumum standard for amount of rounds at different distances.  My course-of-fire is a tad bit tougher but meets those round/distance requirements.  That course-of-fire involves a lot of "static" shooting, but I'm building more moving and shooting into it. We spend a lot of time on other drills and skills.  A lot more moving and shooting, some shoot-don't shoot work and some basic tactical work.  Last year or so, I've been having them do a lot of use-of cover work and I'm building some more stress into the training.

Those who have rifles spend a additional 7-hour day at the range once a year.  Those with shotguns do the same.

Additionally, we do about 6-hours of active shooter training each year with airsoft in one of the buildings we have access to.  I also try to cycle everyone through about 4-hrs on a FATS machine for shoot-don't shoot drills, but that falls by the wayside a lot due to budget issues and OT...... and the FATS machine not working.  laugh

Any officer can ask me for additional rounds and shoot whenever they wish on their own time.  I always buy a LOT more training ammo than I need.  I think I probably have 20k- 30K of handgun training ammo and 30k of rifle training ammo on hand right now.

It's sad but I only have one who shoots monthly.  Two or three others shoot an extra three or four times a year.  The rest don't care.  sad

HankB

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2008, 03:49:53 AM »
It's been my observation the LEO firearms skills generally fall into two categories - very good or very bad.

The second category is by far the larger of the two.

Some years back, I was a member of a pistol club that used the police range in a major Northern metropolitan city. We had a league that used the basic police qualification test. We didn't work from the holster - we didn't want less-experienced members blowing a toe off - but started from the "ready" position. BUT - we cut all the times in half across the board,  increased a few of the distances, and changed some stages to "one hand only" or "weak hand only."  Scoring in the mid-90% range was easy.

Many officers struggled to meet the 70% passing criterion . . . with the more lenient regular time limits.

I've spoken to police firearm instructors, and they agree . . . they've also told me that the new incoming classes of police officers are, as a group, worse shots than previous classes; some recruits are actually afraid of their guns, as they have no firearm experience at all.

If you exclude the SWAT and HRT guys, as well as the instructors and departmental pistol team members, and just take a random sample of the rest, I believe you'd find that most LEOs would qualify as "Novice" on the IDPA qualification test.
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Manedwolf

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2008, 04:18:33 AM »
All I've seen that that the most unsafe people on the local range are cops.

cordex

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Re: How Much And What Kind Of Training Do Cops In Training Get On Guns?
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2008, 09:12:05 AM »
Any officer can ask me for additional rounds and shoot whenever they wish on their own time.  I always buy a LOT more training ammo than I need.  I think I probably have 20k- 30K of handgun training ammo and 30k of rifle training ammo on hand right now.

It's sad but I only have one who shoots monthly.  Two or three others shoot an extra three or four times a year.  The rest don't care.  sad
I can help you with your excess ammo problem.

A friend is getting into being a reserve deputy with our local sheriff's department.  I think he said they offer periodic tactical training and they'll buy any ammo for that.  He didn't mention anything beyond those courses.