Audio-VideoPhiles -- a Little Help?

[Ben]

So I just updated my TV / DVD / Cable setup and am looking for confirmation advice for the most efficient cabling setup. On my old setup, the TV only had one HDMI connector, and the DVD none, so I just used the HDMI from the cable box to the TV and had a complex mish-mash of component, RCA and COAX to hook everything else together.

My new system (TV to be delivered any minute now) has 1 HDMI at the cable box, 1 HDMI on the DVD recorder, and 4 HDMI ports on the TV.

So right now I'm looking at simply doing HDMI out cable - HMDI in TV, HDMI out DVD - HDMI in TV. At some point I might be looking at a speaker system. If so, can I then just go into the optical on the TV and be done with it, or will that interfere / conflict with the HDMI audio?

Thanks for any advice!

[AZRedhawk44]

Going from TV to your stereo receiver will end up saving you money in cabling.

My understanding though (and it's very likely that every TV is different), is that the audio output from TV happens after an Analog conversion for the local audio subsystem.  Even if you input to stereo in a digital format, it has still been converted down and then back to digital before once again converting to analog for listening.

The "correct" way to wire from my understanding is run all video inputs into a quality stereo receiver, a video output to your TV.  Then your audio is digital from source to amp.

That being said... I am not currently doing it that way due to room geometry not cooperating with stereo being next to TV.

[digitalandanalog]

So right now I'm looking at simply doing HDMI out cable - HMDI in TV, HDMI out DVD - HDMI in TV. At some point I might be looking at a speaker system. If so, can I then just go into the optical on the TV and be done with it, or will that interfere / conflict with the HDMI audio?

Depends on which version of HDMI any of your components has...but let's keep as simple as possible.

Are you saying that your new TV has optical audio in or out?

If yes, then it is likely tied into some sort of analog video input and your HDMI source will ignore any optical inputs and just decode audio from the HDMI source.

Since your TV is new I would suspect this to be the case.

If you are talking about getting audio out of your TV to an A/V receiver that has an optical input your TV would have to convert from HDMI and output from a Toslink (optical) jack.

Some components will change signal formats and others won't. As an example...both of my A/V receivers will not convert a digital audio input to an analog signal (and vice versa) for recording. Recording must done in format originally used. Some high dollar components will transcode on all levels, but they aren't cheap by any means.

Of course many good TV sets have an analog output (RCA jacks) in stereo.

The down side to separating video and audio signals in various components is that video and audio sync can get out of wack. Pretty much the only solution for that is to have a component capable adjusting audio delay times.

Audio and video is my passion right behind guns. I live it and breathe. I even wrote a very lengthy paper on professional sound equipment in collage. Teacher loved it. I got an A++ (whatever that is).

[Ben]

Well I just set stuff up as per my first post and all works fine except the TV didn't see my cable box in HDMI 1. The manual mentioned if I had an older cable box (and it's like 4 years old) it might not be HDMI 1.3 compatible and I would have to use the #2 HDMI (which the TV calls HDMI #2, DVI), which I did, and it works.

SO is there a big enough difference between HDMI 1.3 and I suppose what I have is HDM1 1.2 (?) to make it worth getting a new cable box? The DVD recorder is working just fine in HDMI port 1.

[Firethorn]

SO is there a big enough difference between HDMI 1.3 and I suppose what I have is HDM1 1.2 (?) to make it worth getting a new cable box? The DVD recorder is working just fine in HDMI port 1.

HDMI 1.3 allows 1080p+ signals.

If the highest resolution you have to worry about is 1080i, you shouldn't have to worry about it.

[Ben]

Ah, okay. The new set is 1080P so it looks like I'll be calling the cable company tomorrow.

[Marnoot]

1080p has been supported since HDMI 1.0; 1.0 in fact supports up to 1200 lines of vertical resolution. The second table at this link gives a good summary of the differences between versions: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_Interface#Versions

[Ben]

Interesting info on the wiki link.  I went to my cable box site and saw that it's actually HDMI 1.0. It looks like that doesn't make a difference resolution-wise since it supports 1080P. But it says it supports it up to 60hz. The new set is 120 hz. Is there a significant difference as far as image quality between being constrained to the 60 versus using the set's full capability for 120?

[Marnoot]

There are no 120hz sources (cable boxes, dvrs, dvd players, etc) that I'm aware of, in fact I don't think current TVs can even accept that as an input. The benefit of 120hz is that DVDs/Blu-rays/etc, that are originally sourced from film, are sent to the TV at 24hz. They don't look as good on 60hz TVs because 60 isn't a multiple of 24, so frames have to be dropped or duplicated in an inconsistent manner to display the video at 60hz. TVs with 120hz refresh rates can display both 60hz and 24hz source material without dropping any frames as 120 is a multiple of both 24 and 60.

[Ben]

Geez, how can I know stuff about one kind of technology and be such an idiot with another?

Thanks for the info Marnoot. So it looks like my current HD cable box is as okay as anything else out there for the TV signal.

[Brad Johnson]

I say go for a home theater unit and let it do the switching for you.  Use the TV as a monitor only.  Better sound and single-remote source switching.  A lot of the HT remotes will also assume functions of your component remotes so you may be able to single-remote the whole thing, too.  I went this route a couple of years ago and it works much more efficiently. 

Many units, beginning with most mfg mid-range offerings, feature Toslink audio inputs/outputs and will automatically decode Dolby Pro-Logic and DTS.  Plus, many of the HT control units will upconvert ANY input to HDMI.  That way if you have an older style component (like my laserdisc player) you don't have to bother with trying to get it set up to the system.  Plug and play. 

Denon is a good choice, as is Onkyo.  I currently have a Yamaha and love it.  Unfortunately I bought the unit just prior to the HDMI revolution and it only switches component.  But, hey, my TV isn't HDMI ready so it doesn't matter.

**Edit to Add**

Did some poking around on Yamaha's home theater offerings.  Here's their HTR 6180, the top-of-the-line retail unit.  They have even higher-end audiophile units, but they get extremely pricey.

The 6180 is Bluetooth compatible, has built in Sirius and XM cpability, and can dock an IPod (docking station is an add-on).  It will decode all current audio offerings, switches HDMI, is full Dolby-whatever compatible, and upconverts all video sources.

Specs and views...
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/productdetail.html?CNTID=567422&CTID=5000400

Amazon has them in stock for $814.

[Ben]

The home theater unit is definitely something I'm looking into next. The Samsung TV I bought got rave reviews on everything but audio so it would make sense to upgrade to home theater. Of course I live in a condo, so I can't really blast the sound and also have limited room where the TV is, so Ill be looking at something compact, if that exists with good quality.

[Brad Johnson]

so Ill be looking at something compact, if that exists with good quality.

Yamaha SP-7800

[Firethorn]

Ah, okay. The new set is 1080P so it looks like I'll be calling the cable company tomorrow.

Still won't matter unless the CABLE company is shipping 1080p channels; which I find unlikely.

1080p has been supported since HDMI 1.0; 1.0 in fact supports up to 1200 lines of vertical resolution.

hmm...  When I was shopping for cables recently, they said differently.  Oh well.  6' 1.3 HDMI cable for $10.  Not a bad price.

[Brad Johnson]

Cable company?  1080p? 

Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha! *snort* Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!Ha!

Brad

[BrokenPaw]

Yamaha SP-7800

I own this exact speaker set.  The main towers do a pretty good job in my system.  The center-channel speaker was a bit anemic for the level of sound that needs to come out in a good home theatre, so I put back in the Bose (yes, yes, I know) center-channel that I had before.  The Yamaha surrounds are perfectly adequate.  I don't use the sub that came with the Yamaha system, because I have a powered subwoofer table that a friend built for me, that outperforms the Yamaha by an order of magnitude.

I second what others have been saying about just using a an A/V receiver to do your switching for you.  I use a Harman/Kardon AVR247  (Dual HDMI, XM-ready, iPod-dock ready, 7.1- or 5.1-and-secondary-zone capable).

HD-DVD and Blu-Ray go into the AVR via HDMI.  HD cable box goes via component cables and coax digital audio (the AVR supports optical and coax for digital audio)  We have the H/K Bridge iPod dock, which is pretty nice.  AVR to TV via HDMI, 1080p.

For complex systems, I can't recommend the Logitech Harmony series of universal remotes highly enough.  I have one, and it replaced the TV, Cable, AVR, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray remotes.  It allows you to set up "activites" like "Watch a Blu-Ray movie", and automagically makes sure that the AVR, BD player, and TV are on, and that the AVR and TV have the right inputs selected, then switches itself into "all of my buttons except volume control the BD player, volume controls the AVR" mode.  (All of the activities are fully configurable through your PC; the remote connects to it via USB for programming).  It tracks what components are on, and when you switch activities, it powers off the things that you're not going to be using, turns on the things you will, and leaves alone anything (like the AVR) that were already on, then switches everything's inputs to fit the new activity.

With a universal remote like the Harmony, you don't even really need to worry about which how everything is connected (for instance, if you have 3 HDMI sources, and your TV has 2 HDMI in, and your AVR has 2 HDMI in).  You can put two of the inputs into the AVR, put the AVR and the other source into the TV, and run the audio from the third source into the AVR via optical or coax, and tell the remote "for sources 1 and two, TV gets video from AVR, and AVR gets video and audio from HDMI 1/2 respectively.  For source 3, TV gets video from secondary HDMI, and AVR gets audio from optical/coax."  The remote noodles it all out when you select various activities.

-BP

[SADShooter]

BP:

Thanks for the Harmony feedback. A colleague of my wife recommended them as well, but your illustration is impressive. When I replace my dead Pioneer receiver I'll definitely put a remote on the equipment list.

SADShooter

[BrokenPaw]

Thanks for the Harmony feedback. A colleague of my wife recommended them as well, but your illustration is impressive. When I replace my dead Pioneer receiver I'll definitely put a remote on the equipment list.

You're welcome.  I was sort of dragged kicking-and-screaming into buying the thing from a friend (he was upgrading to a newer version), but it makes things much simpler.

Especially when BrokenMa and I go out of town and leave MIL with the urchins.

It's far easier to tell MIL "pick up the remote and press 'BluRay', put in your disk, and watch.  When you're done, press the power button, and everything will turn off" than it is to say:

"Ok.  Pick up the remote that says 'Sony' and press the power button.  Now, put it down, you won't need it until you're done.  Pick up the remote that says 'Panasonic', and press power.  Now go put your disc in.  Now pick up the remote that says 'Harman/Kardon', and press the 'Power' Button, then the 'HDMI' button and if that button is red, push it again so that it's green.  Now watch.  When you're done, turn everything off with the same remotes you used to turn them on.  If you want to watch cable, gods help you."

Especially to a woman whose first language was not English.

Actually, the H/K AVR247 has a pretty good multifunction remote, as far as such things go, and I didn't have any real issue with it, but it definitely failed the Bolivian Mother-in-law test.

Most of the higher-end Harmony remotes even have LCD displays with programmable icons and words, so that you can name an activity whatever you like.

-BP

[digitalandanalog]

I second what others have been saying about just using a an A/V receiver to do your switching for you.

Not me

I use my A/V receiver to do audio only. All of my my video outputs go straight to the TV and I manually select them as I use them. I find that it keeps the picture as clean as possible. Less cable and transcoding is always better, no matter what kinds of bells and whistles the receiver claims to have for your viewing pleasure.

All audio goes to the receiver for decoding.

[BrokenPaw]

Not me

I use my A/V receiver to do audio only. All of my my video outputs go straight to the TV and I manually select them as I use them. I find that it keeps the picture as clean as possible. Less cable and transcoding is always better, no matter what kinds of bells and whistles the receiver claims to have for your viewing pleasure.

All audio goes to the receiver for decoding.

I would say this is true for HD analog video signals up to and including component in 1080i.  However, comma, you're going to lose nothing with an AVR that switches HDMI inputs to HDMI outputs; it's not going to degrade the ones and zeros, it's going to pass them along just as they were.

For for a system that's based upon 1080p over HDMI, a switching AVR has no real downside.

In my home system, the only non-HDMI video feed I have is my Comcast HD DVR box, which feeds the AVR via component cable, and the AVR converts it to HDMI and feeds the TV.  Given the quality of SD TV, and the somewhat-less-than-stellar HD that Comcast distributes, I'm going to stand by what I said, for people with situations similar to mine; the video signal that's getting to my TV isn't suffering for having gone through HDMI conversion in the AVR.  Or rather, any suffering that it's doing is already below the noise floor caused by SD's limitations or Comcast's HD shenanigans. 

SD TV looks like blurry crap on any 55-inch TV; cabling it up directly won't help that.

-BP

[digitalandanalog]

I would say this is true for HD analog video signals up to and including component in 1080i.  However, comma, you're going to lose nothing with an AVR that switches HDMI inputs to HDMI outputs; it's not going to degrade the ones and zeros, it's going to pass them along just as they were.

Well, I agree with you on the whole analog bit. My HDTV has no DVI or HDMI inputs, so I live with component HD input and it suits me fine. Even just plain 480p from my DVD player is awesome to me. I have a properly set up 32 inch Panasonic CRT and I see very few set ups that rival mine due to the fact that most people cannot set their systems up for optimal picture. They just plug in cords and watch whatever picture comes out.

Someday I will buy HDMI components...until then I live with my analog options. Except that 98% of my music is transmitted digitally (coax) and decoded in the receiver.

Truth is that I am more interested in the Hi-Fi side of HDMI. I love music and am really hoping that Blu-Ray can be an accepted standard for music storage that just completely kicks SACD's or DVD Audio's ass. Throw in some cool bonus features if you like, but give me a format that sounds so close to live that the only limitations are your amp, speakers and bank account