Author Topic: Radio Experts - Antenna Question  (Read 1825 times)

Ben

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Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« on: August 11, 2009, 02:47:54 PM »
A couple of questions for any of you radio experts.

I have to install a VHF stick antenna to the top of the building I'm in and run coax down three stories to to my office. Does anyone know if  I will run into any significant  degradation with that much coax (I'm guessing 100')? It's a broadband VHF stick antenna, 50 watts, 3db with a 6 MHz bandwidth. Its SWR is around 157 MHz. It's for an Automated Identification System (AIS) receiver for tracking ships.

Also, would this type of antenna be affected by being painted? I'm installing it in an historical Navy building and I'm supposed to "camouflage" it to blend in.

Thanks for any help.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

RevDisk

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2009, 03:11:17 PM »
A couple of questions for any of you radio experts.

I have to install a VHF stick antenna to the top of the building I'm in and run coax down three stories to to my office. Does anyone know if  I will run into any significant  degradation with that much coax (I'm guessing 100')? It's a broadband VHF stick antenna, 50 watts, 3db with a 6 MHz bandwidth. Its SWR is around 157 MHz. It's for an Automated Identification System (AIS) receiver for tracking ships.

Also, would this type of antenna be affected by being painted? I'm installing it in an historical Navy building and I'm supposed to "camouflage" it to blend in.

Thanks for any help.

100 feet is not going to have much degradation.  If you're overly paranoid, use triaxial cable or a shielded cable channel, but seriously, that's overkill.   What RG-# type are you using?

Paint shouldn't dramatically hurt performance, unless it has lead or copper in it.  Which is unlikely. 
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

mtnbkr

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2009, 03:26:18 PM »
100ft at VHF frequencies will reduce your output and the apparent strength of your received signal if you don't use low loss cable.  If you can afford it, get Times Microwave LMR-400. 

For example, if you used RG-8x, the typical coax used by amateur radio installations, you would have a 4.7db attenuation for 100 foot of cable (plus more for each connector).  That's more than half your signal strength (3db is a halving).  LMR-400 suffers only 1.5db at 100ft (both figures for 150mhz).

Figures from here: http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/cable/coaxperf.html

A couple years ago, I got a NEW 100ft coil of LMR-400 shipped for about $50.  I've been using it as the feedline for my amateur radio installation at home ever since.

SWR is not 157mhz.  SWR is a ratio (1:1 is perfect, but not obtainable under most circumstances).  I imagine 157mhz is the frequency you'll be operating on.

Chris

Brad Johnson

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2009, 04:00:08 PM »
157Mhz? Must be a VHF band business radio (or maybe a city/county commo system?).

As other have said, use low-loss. Good cable will pay you dividends in signal strenth. Also, better cable will usually withstand the rigors of outdoor use longer and with less trouble than cheaper stuff.

Be sure to use GOOD CONNECTIONS (preferably hard soldered), and to weatherproof them with a dab of silicon on the threads.

Brad
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mtnbkr

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2009, 04:06:25 PM »
Be sure to use GOOD CONNECTIONS (preferably hard soldered), and to weatherproof them with a dab of silicon on the threads.

Good connectors can be crimped as well.  In fact, crimping is frequently the better method depending on cable and application.

Weatherproofing is best done by self sealing rubber tape.  I can't recall the exact name, but it looks like thick rubber electrical tape and will seal to itself.   For my install, I used PVC conduits and junction boxes (had a splitter and lightening protection devices to protect).

Chris

Ben

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2009, 04:57:48 PM »
Thanks guys -- as you can see, I'm an amateur with this. I haven't bought any cable yet, so didn't even know what kind I need. I just got the specs on the antenna and receiver.

Chris -- yeah, my mistake, the SWR is 1.5:1. Could the 156.8 be either an average or tuned freq? The actual receiver runs on either 161.975 or 162.025. But the antenna spec was sent to me by a Scripps lab that does AIS development, so I'm guessing they know what they're doing with recommending this particular antenna.

This is actually the antenna:

http://shakespeare-marine.com/antennas.asp?antenna=396-1-AIS
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Hawkmoon

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2009, 05:06:08 PM »
GROUNDING!

Don't forget the antenna will be the highest thing up there. The National Electric Code requires that it be grounded -- and if the wire leads into your office, you WANT it to be grounded.
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Brad Johnson

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2009, 05:25:35 PM »
Chris -- yeah, my mistake, the SWR is 1.5:1. Could the 156.8 be either an average or tuned freq? The actual receiver runs on either 161.975 or 162.025. But the antenna spec was sent to me by a Scripps lab that does AIS development, so I'm guessing they know what they're doing with recommending this particular antenna.

This is actually the antenna:

http://shakespeare-marine.com/antennas.asp?antenna=396-1-AIS

If you've seen both 161.975 and 162.025 listed in your docs then they are the transmit and receive frequencies. Tranceivers on repeater systems normally run on one frequency to receive, then jump to an offset (plus or minus) frequency to transmit. The 0.05 difference between the freqs you listed is the giveaway, as that is the common offset.

Chances are there is also a channel programmed into the radio that's set to the base frequency but has no offset. That's for direct-transmission communications (keying up the unit without activating the repeater). This is used a lot when you have units in the field who need to talk directly, but are out of repeater range or don't want to clutter up the airwaves with non-critical communication.

Dunno why they are telling you to tune the antenna for 156.8. For optimal performance the stick should be tweaked for max SWR at the xceiver's transmit frequency. Is there another repeater or radio that will be on the same stick?

Like Chris said, there are some good crimp connectors as well. I'm just old school - I want a hard soldered connection for everything so there is zero chance of corrosion at the wire/connector interface becoming a problem. He's also right that the self-vulcanizing weather wrap is a good idea. I forgot this will be a stationary unit so it would be a better idea to seal the entire connector. (Completely wrapped connections are a gooey headache on mobil antennas, most of which get removed regularly for any number of reasons).

Brad
« Last Edit: August 11, 2009, 07:17:03 PM by Brad Johnson »
It's all about the pancakes, people.
"And he thought cops wouldn't chase... a STOLEN DONUT TRUCK???? That would be like Willie Nelson ignoring a pickup full of weed."
-HankB

Boomhauer

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2009, 06:17:44 PM »
A word on connectors- good connectors are not found at Radioshack.


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mtnbkr

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2009, 06:26:16 PM »
A word on connectors- good connectors are not found at Radioshack.

+1, though they will work in a pinch.

Even better connectors for this application are NOT UHF type.  Go N-connectors if you can.

Chris

Ben

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2009, 09:13:26 PM »
Any recommended websites that you guys use from which to buy coax and connectors?

Brad -- only one radio on the antenna. A similar one that I VNC into currently lets me choose either freq to receive from. Though they make AIS transceivers, which is what you'll find on ships and boats, as well as base stations that need to send data or messages, I'm getting a receive only radio as a data collector to pipe transmitted data into a software program called shipplotter. The radio itself (an Icom) runs off software on the PC as well for setting receive modes, tweaking the signal, etc.
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."

Boomhauer

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #11 on: August 11, 2009, 09:19:55 PM »
These are the suppliers I use for general ham radio supplies and such. I posted these in the "Got Ham?" thread

Reputable dealers for amateur books and equipment:

Ham Radio Outlet (HRO)  http://www.hamradio.com/

R and L electronics  http://www.randl.com/shop/index.shtml

Amateur Electronic Supply   http://www.aesham.com/


I mainly use HRO because there is a store 3 hours away from me and I prefer to examine my equipment before buying. All of the ham radio store websites kind of suck, request some catalogs. HRO has a store in Phoenix, AZ if you are near there.
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Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

RevDisk

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2009, 09:27:08 PM »

L-com is half decent for some of the stuff you'll be looking for.
"Rev, your picture is in my King James Bible, where Paul talks about "inventors of evil."  Yes, I know you'll take that as a compliment."  - Fistful, possibly highest compliment I've ever received.

Ben

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Re: Radio Experts - Antenna Question
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2009, 09:52:38 PM »
Thanks guys!
"I'm a foolish old man that has been drawn into a wild goose chase by a harpy in trousers and a nincompoop."