Author Topic: Another "compliance tasing"  (Read 27081 times)

MicroBalrog

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #100 on: August 21, 2009, 07:06:57 AM »
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The change I would make to MB's post is that I would take note of granny's ID data: DL#, car tag#, Name, Home Addy, etc.  Something Deputy Donuthole already had access to.

Aren't car numbers already linked to all of these things?
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vaskidmark

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #101 on: August 21, 2009, 07:55:45 AM »
First off.... ???

Second.... try clicking on the link and reading the site before you start typing responses. If you do, you will find a method that the officer could have used that would have prevented this situation from escalating into a shock-fest in the first place--which should be the primary goal. Nothing is more scary than a LEO looking for a fight....they often find one...and sometimes it's a fight that they lose...

I did read the site, and am very familiar with Verbal Judo.  I still disagree with you that the technique would have prevented this situation from escalating although I agree there is a chance it might have done so.

Third.... both parties are at fault in this situation. No, both parties are not at fault.  Granny backed the Deputy into the corner.  He, per training and department rules, has no choices left but to effect the arrest.Best thing that can happen in this case is that all charges and suits are dismissed with prejudice and they go their separate ways.  And the LEO in question receive some training in non-electrical, verbal compliance methods. It may save his life later on....

The problem as I see it is that you are campaigning for a change in the reality of the situation, while I am dealing with the here&now in the here and now. 25+ mph over the posted speed limit is reckless driving, which is judicially considered a serious offense that places the lives of others at risk.  Resisting arrest and obstruction of justice are serious offenses that "insult the dignity" of the state as well as, in varying ways, place the officer at risk.  After committing those offenses, as well as the initial offense that caused the stop, allowing Granny to return to her vehicle for who knows what purpose when the Deputy's "training and experience" (things courts give great defference to) is that a vehicle may contain or be used as a weapon, flies in the face of reason at the moment and in the circumstances.

I am probably more opposed to jack-booted thug techniques that the majority of APS members because I have personal experience in both applying and receiving them.  As such, I am well aware that they are pretty much quaranteed to make both the applier and the receiver feel unhappy at the conclusion of the day's events.

However, there is the quetion of the preservation of the "majesty" of the state's servants that needs to be maintained, and I seem to be the only one wanting to directly address that issue.  No matter how well or poorly the Deputy did in explaining to Granny why she should just sign the ticket and go on her way, or what the consequences would be if she failed to sign the ticket, once she failed to sign the ticket all other options were lawfully off the table.

We can discuss changing the law, but until such a change is effected the choices remain sign or be arrested.

I have been arrested in both civillian and military settings.  In both there was, at the time of arrest, an option open to the arresting officer to decide if I needed more than verbal restraint of my action - in other words, to cuff me or not to cuff me.  Cooperative and compliant arrestees may be able to take the ride downtown without having restraints applied, if policy and procedure allows the arresting officer that option.  Certain crimes also allow for the option of contacting the offender and asking them to present themselves at their earliest convenience at the local cop shop.  Resisting arrest on the side of the road (no matter how non-violently) is generally not one of those circumstances.

I have come full circle again (is it twice, or thrice) to the issue of the "majesty of the law."  I still cannot see a way to preserve that without ensuring that Granny is in fact placed in custody right there on the side of the road.  I have already given my thoughts and reasons for supporting one particular technique/use of force over other possibilities.

As for those that say "let Granny go, and show up at her doorstep later to effect the actual arrest/custody issue" - are you aware that doing so raises the stakes as it is more than likely there will be a swat team rather than a negotiator doing the knocking on her door?  Again, it devolves to the issue of the "majesty of the law."  show me how to get around that without making the least among the criminal element fear they will in fact be cuffed and stuffed, which is the purpose of asserting the "majesty of the law" issue.

My bottom line is not that the Deputy was "right" but that Granny was most certainly wrong, and she escalated her level of being wrong until she experienced the consequences, in that setting and at that time, of insisting on being wrong.

stay safe.

skidmark
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #102 on: August 21, 2009, 07:58:47 AM »
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However, there is the quetion of the preservation of the "majesty" of the state's servants that needs to be maintained, and I seem to be the only one wanting to directly address that issue.

I'm just not that big of a fan of the majesty of state servants.
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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #103 on: August 21, 2009, 07:59:55 AM »
Granny poses no risk(1) to the public by driving away from this.  Just because one has authority to do some things does not mean it is wise to do some things.

so granny speeding is ok?  25 over?

It is against the law but no danger on the major highway she was traversing.  Hence, the ticket.  

Come to Texas sometime.  20+ over posted on the highway is enough to let you blend in and "move with the flow of traffic" as folk say.

Regards,

roo_ster

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MicroBalrog

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #104 on: August 21, 2009, 08:06:48 AM »
It is against the law but no danger on the major highway she was traversing.  Hence, the ticket.  

Come to Texas sometime.  20+ over posted on the highway is enough to let you blend in and "move with the flow of traffic" as folk say.



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zahc

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #105 on: August 21, 2009, 10:54:41 AM »
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Also, when she said "give it to me, I'll sign it" he should have said OK, here you go, and good day to you ma'am.

At that point he had already told her she was under arrest. Maybe he shouldn't have, but if he already said that, then he's going to arrest her and should, IMO.
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lupinus

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #106 on: August 21, 2009, 04:46:08 PM »
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I'm unsure on using a taser to gain compliance, would wrestling her to the ground have been better?  I'd think she'd be more likely to suffer injuries being wrestled to the ground.
And you know something this drastic would have been needed....how exactly?

The officer barely tried before resorting to a taser to gain compliance of a person who posed no threat to him at the time she was tased.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #107 on: August 21, 2009, 04:53:27 PM »
a person who posed no threat to him at the time she was tased.

and to turn your previous post on you


you know this how?  we already know granny is/was crazy/stupid.  how does one determine which and how much quickly on the side of the road?
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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lupinus

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #108 on: August 21, 2009, 05:11:49 PM »
At what point did she attempt to harm the officer?
That is all. *expletive deleted*ck you all, eat *expletive deleted*it, and die in a fire. I have considered writing here a long parting section dedicated to each poster, but I have decided, at length, against it. *expletive deleted*ck you all and Hail Satan.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #109 on: August 21, 2009, 05:16:10 PM »
you claim she posed no threat. in my view when someone is so addled they flub getting a tickets then square off and get mouthy with someone 1/3 bigger than them who has a gun i gotta wonder what their thoughts/delusions are when they stomp off to their vehicle after being told they are under arrest. lil old crazy ladies been know to shoot. dementia makes folks onery sometimes and the roadside diagnosis is dicey. i think we need better training for folks on how getting a ticket works. something like chris rocks "how not to get your butt kicked" only for white folk
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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seeker_two

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #110 on: August 21, 2009, 06:20:24 PM »


The problem as I see it is that you are campaigning for a change in the reality of the situation, while I am dealing with the here&now in the here and now.

 


The reality of the situation is that both parties escalated a situation to the point of a Tesla experiment when the more professional of the two had ways to defuse it. Granny was wrong for her attitude....and Officer Edison was wrong for his....



However, there is the quetion of the preservation of the "majesty" of the state's servants that needs to be maintained, and I seem to be the only one wanting to directly address that issue.  No matter how well or poorly the Deputy did in explaining to Granny why she should just sign the ticket and go on her way, or what the consequences would be if she failed to sign the ticket, once she failed to sign the ticket all other options were lawfully off the table.

 



You're arguing "majesty"....I'm arguing "suitability"....just because a LEO has a taser (and is the department's taser instructor, at that) does not mean it is suitable to use the taser in all compliance situations....or create situations where it needs to be used. Would we be having the same arguement if the LEO exacerbated the situation further and used his sidearm?



My bottom line is not that the Deputy was "right" but that Granny was most certainly wrong, and she escalated her level of being wrong until she experienced the consequences, in that setting and at that time, of insisting on being wrong.

 


Both parties escalated the situation to that point....don't give either party a pass on this....



I did read the site, and am very familiar with Verbal Judo.  I still disagree with you that the technique would have prevented this situation from escalating although I agree there is a chance it might have done so.

 


....and we'll never know as long as LEO's use tasers as cattle prods.....
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #111 on: August 21, 2009, 06:24:07 PM »
this is like my kid blaming me for getting smacked after biting her sister   and less credible  at least my kid is 2 shes got an excuse.  granny not so much  unless we're gonna raise the dementia defense
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #112 on: August 22, 2009, 01:51:35 AM »
If I stopped the lady for the violation in this story, it would have resulted in an infraction, so no arrest would be involved.  Around these parts, if a vehicle operator refuses to sign a traffic infraction, it’s an additional charge resulting in an additional fine of $158.  As long as I can definitely ascertain the identity of the operator, I personally could care less if they refuse to sign.  I just add the new charge to the infraction and send them on their way.   They can plead guilty and mail in the fine or they can go to court and argue with the judge.
I don’t get all up about it.  I just don’t care- life is too short to fight about unimportant things.  No chest-thumping or ego-protecting measures are needed.  I'm secure in my manhood.  =D (Not saying the incident was the result of that behavior as I don't know the laws of TX)
 
I'm assuming that the incident occurred where the law either requires an operator to sign the citation and refusal is a misdemeanor – or - the speed laws that were broken are a misdemeanor.  If the latter is the case, around these parts, the operator is technically under arrest at the time of the stop as a misdemeanor offense is an arrestable offense.    The officer has the discretion to either issue a citation and release the operator on a “Promise to Appear” – or - take the operator into custody and do the whole “at-the-station” arrest process. 

For me, I consider issuing the citation and releasing the person on a PTA is basically cutting both the person and me a major break.  No towing of the vehicle is involved, the person is only subjected to a minimum inconvenience, and my report is a lot easier to write and I don’t have to spend the hours involved in the whole arrest procedure.  IMO, it’s a win-win for all involved.  Should I decide to go with the citation and PTA and the person refused to sign, it would then result in an in-custody arrest.  Sorry… my discretion is then limited and that limit was reached by the person refusing to comply with the law.

We don’t have Tasers.  If a person is not complying with a lawful arrest we have to go hands-on.   In the video incident this thread is about, the bottom line is she was told she was under arrest.  She failed to comply.   It’s probably fortunate she ran into an officer that had a Taser.   

The officer was lucky also.  Had he not had one, the video of him going hands-on would not have been very pretty.  The appearance of the level of force used when going hands-on even against a non-complaint person looks bad on film.  I know- I’ve seen some videos of those.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2009, 02:15:48 AM by 209 »

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #113 on: August 22, 2009, 02:12:28 AM »
First off:  Some people need to learn math.  She was doing 60 in a 45.  That would be 15 over... :rolleyes:         

I missed the cuffs the first time.  I guess she did somewhat deserve the tasing under the current law, considering the fact that she was under arrest and resisting. 

Now, should she have had to sign the ticket and should this whole thing have happened in the first place?  Those ideas I can't say I agree with.  In Oregon, you get your ticket and you go to court.  No need to sign anything, if you don't go to court you get extra fines and IIRC a bench warrant.  This whole situation was fubar and IMO didn't need to happen. 
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #114 on: August 22, 2009, 08:08:46 AM »
60 in a 45 is worse  she wasn't on the interstate where 20 over is keeping up with traffic
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Tuco

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #115 on: August 22, 2009, 12:38:42 PM »
She wasn't tased for speeding.
She wasn't tased for not signing the ticket.

She was tased for resisting arrest.
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Balog

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #116 on: August 22, 2009, 12:52:51 PM »
She wasn't tased for speeding.
She wasn't tased for not signing the ticket.

She was tased for resisting arrest.


This. But apparently that's ok when you're old. Don't tell AARP.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #117 on: August 22, 2009, 01:39:38 PM »
She wasn't tased for speeding.
She wasn't tased for not signing the ticket.

She was tased for resisting arrest.


And we should just forget the context?
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vaskidmark

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #118 on: August 22, 2009, 02:02:22 PM »
Oh, heck!  This one's been beaten just about to death.  There are two camps, and neither one is willing to concede a point to the other.

I've got an idea!  Let's get a fresh horse and see if we can do anything to it.  How about this one - http://forums.mercurynews.com/topic/deputies-watched-while-gunman-killed-two-on-bridge?source=article#comment-279785 ?  We'll start with the comments section.  You can find the link to the article itself in the upper left part just before the comments begin.

In case anybody cares, my thoughts are that the news rag is sensationalizing the whole thing.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

Hawkmoon

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Re: Another "compliance tasing"
« Reply #119 on: August 22, 2009, 05:24:17 PM »
I feel like there is some reasoning behind his actions.

If he manhandled her into cuffs, would he face some legal action?

He gave her so many warnings that it seemed to me he was trying to follow some sort of procedure.

I generally don't think a tazing should be done, but I don't feel the officer thought it necessary either.  It even seemed like he prolonged physical intervention as long as possible.

That's exactly the point ... in this instance. She refused to sign the ticket and was being disruptive, so he was correct in arresting her. If she chose to be uncooperative after that, what were his choices if he didn't use the Taser? Headlock? Baton? Oleocapsicum fog?
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