Author Topic: Vegetative State? Not So Much...  (Read 2350 times)

roo_ster

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Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« on: February 04, 2010, 11:57:16 AM »
The sample size was small, but roughly 10% of those diagnosed as turnips were aware, but could not control thier bodies.

Kind of a chilling thought.





http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02/03/AR2010020302887.html?hpid=topnews

In 'vegetative state' patients, brain scanners show some alert minds

By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, February 4, 2010; A01

Many of the patients were labeled with the same grim diagnosis: "vegetative state." Their head injuries, teams of specialists had concluded, condemned them to a netherworld -- alive yet utterly devoid of any awareness of the world around them.

But an international team of scientists decided to try a bold experiment using the latest technology to peek inside the minds of 54 patients to see whether, in fact, they were conscious.

One by one, the men and women were placed inside advanced brain scanners as technicians gave them careful instructions: Imagine you are playing tennis. Imagine you are exploring your home, room by room. For most, the scanner showed nothing.

But, shockingly, for one, then another, and another, and yet two more, the scans flashed exactly like any healthy conscious person's would. These patients, the images clearly indicated, were living silently in their bodies, their minds apparently active. One man could even flawlessly answer detailed yes-or-no questions about his life before his trauma by activating different parts of his brain.

"It was incredible," said Adrian M. Owen, a neuroscientist at the Medical Research Council who led the groundbreaking research described in a paper published online Wednesday by the New England Journal of Medicine. "These are patients who are totally unable to perform functions with their bodies -- even blink an eye or move an eyebrow -- but yet are entirely conscious. It's quite distressing, really, to realize this."


Although Owen and other experts stressed that much more research is needed to confirm findings and refine the technology, they said the results could provide profound insight into human consciousness -- one of the most daunting scientific mysteries -- and lead to ways to better diagnose brain injuries and treat tens of thousands of patients. The technology also offers the tantalizing possibility of being able to finally communicate with some patients and ask, at the very least, whether they are in pain and need relief.

"This should change the way we think about these patients," said Nicholas D. Schiff, an associate professor of neurology and neuroscience at Weill Cornell Medical College in New York City. "I think it's going to have very broad implications."
Wider questions

The research inevitably raised questions about patients such as Terri Schiavo, a Florida woman in a persistent vegetative state whose family dispute over whether to discontinue her care ignited a national debate over the right-to-die issue that led to congressional intervention in 2005. Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler, said the new study highlights the limits of medicine to provide an accurate diagnosis.

"I wish this could have been used on my sister to see what could have been done to help her," Schindler said in a telephone interview.

But Owen, Schiff and other experts stressed that the research does not indicate that many patients in vegetative states are necessarily aware or have any hope of recovery. Many, like Schiavo, have suffered much greater danger to their brains for far longer than the patients in the study.

"In some cases, the damage to the brain is so severe that it is simply inconceivable they could produce any responses," Owen said.

As many as 20,000 Americans are in a vegetative state, meaning they are alive and awake but without any apparent sense of awareness, and 100,000 to 300,000 are in a related condition known as a minimally conscious state, in which they exhibit impaired or intermittent awareness. It is unclear what proportion of these patients would be affected by the study's findings.

A growing body of evidence in recent years has indicated that a significant proportion of such patients might have had their conditions misdiagnosed and have more awareness than had been thought.
Responsive minds

In 2006, Owen and his colleagues described the case of a young woman who had been thought to be in a vegetative state whose brain responded identically to a normal brain when placed inside a device known as a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) scanner and asked to imagine herself playing tennis or exploring her home. The case electrified neuroscientists. But it remained unclear whether her case was a fluke or represented a population of patients who were languishing with misdiagnoses.

Flooded with requests from desperate families to assess their loved ones, Owen and researchers at the University of Liege in Belgium started testing more patients. In the new report, the researchers describe the results from the first 54, including 23 who had a vegetative state diagnosed and 31 whose diagnosis was minimal consciousness.

Five, including the first woman, were able to repeatedly fire their brains in precisely the same way as hundreds of normal volunteers who were put in the fMRIs and asked to imagine themselves hitting a tennis ball, and wandering through their homes. Four of the five had received a vegetative state diagnosis, and one was thought to be only minimally conscious. Three showed signs of awareness during intensive standard bedside tests, but two did not.

The researchers then decided to see if they could use the approach to communicate with a patient. They told a 29-year-old man in Belgium to think about tennis if he wanted his answers to be yes and imagine touring his home for no. They then asked him yes-or-no questions about his life, such as whether his father's name was Thomas and whether he had brothers or sisters. He got every question right by thinking about tennis or being home.

"He could produce no communication with his body," Owen said. "But he could systematically and repeatedly change his brain activity to indicate yes or no with 100 percent accuracy."

Finding a way to communicate with brain-damaged patients has long been a goal of neuroscientists. It has also been the subject of literature and films, including the 2007 film "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly," which told the story of French editor Jean-Dominique Bauby. Bauby, paralyzed in a "locked-in syndrome" by a stroke, could communicate only by blinking his left eye.

But some urged caution, saying that the new technique raised a host of thorny questions.

"If a patient wanted to die, if they were asked, 'Do you want to die?,' could they explain themselves adequately?" said Joseph J. Fins, chief of the division of medical ethics at Weill Cornell Medical College. "If they say yes, what does that mean? If this person said yes but meant maybe, or it was 'sort of yes,' we may not be able to understand that sort of nuance. You have to be very careful."
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roo_ster

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S. Williamson

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2010, 12:07:13 PM »
I assume the questions posed to the vegetative patients were posed audibly? 
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French G.

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2010, 12:19:41 PM »
I hope this leads to treatment where doctors try to explain the situation to those who show activity and also provide stimulus like music, human interaction or something. Must be pure hell to lie there and hear people around you but not be able to control any muscles to speak or move to make them aware. Talk about prison.  :'(
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makattak

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2010, 12:41:05 PM »
I assume the questions posed to the vegetative patients were posed audibly? 

That was my thought.

I think more of these "vegetative" states may have the same level of alertness.

If their mind has been cut off from making their body respond, they may also be cut off from hearing. That's an amazingly difficult thought- trapped in the dark silence of your own body.

I don't know how else to pose questions to someone to see if they still have other senses, though...
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Fly320s

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2010, 01:29:45 PM »
I don't know how else to pose questions to someone to see if they still have other senses, though...

Written on cards or via computer screens if their vision still works.

One thing this article does for me is make me very happy that I have started the process to have a living will (medcal directive) drawn up.  I've thoroughly discussed this type event with my wife.  She knows, and my medical directive will state, that I want my plug pulled rather than live in a persistant vegetative state.  Even if my brain is working fine, but my body is useless, that is not "living" by my definition.

Medical science isn't exact.  Never has been and never will be.  The best that doctors can do is to give their "best guess" of what is happening.  The medical knowledge is always increasing, but there will always be cases or diseases that stump the doctors.
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Gewehr98

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2010, 03:17:51 PM »
Quote
That's an amazingly difficult thought- trapped in the dark silence of your own body.

My first cat-scan or EEG derived words would be "Kill me.  Kill me now!"
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2010, 03:21:52 PM »
Quote
Talk about prison.

Ooh... chemically induced vegetative state.  With behavior-correction audio tracks playing in the background for them.  I like.

Gotta be cheaper than guards, prison riots, large prisons and such.
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Nick1911

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2010, 03:23:27 PM »
I think, lying like that, day by day, year in and year out, would be hell.   :'(

I need to draw up a will.

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2010, 03:26:36 PM »
you need a living will or medical directive for when you are still alive but unable to make medical decisions.

the will is for your stuff.

also, name someone you trust as a medical proxie (its automatically usually parents or spouse)... which reminds me, i need to get paper work so mine is dad and not my mother...
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Fly320s

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2010, 04:20:11 PM »
you need a living will or medical directive for when you are still alive but unable to make medical decisions.

the will is for your stuff.

also, name someone you trust as a medical proxie (its automatically usually parents or spouse)... which reminds me, i need to get paper work so mine is dad and not my mother...

Pick at least 3 people to decide on your future via medical decisions.  Have it arranged so a simple majority vote, not unanimous, makes things happen.  During a tough process like this, it might be hard for a group of people to reach a unanimous decision.

You probably don't want your parents having to make the decision of wether to kill you, so pick someone else that you trust.
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French G.

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2010, 02:44:40 AM »
Ooh... chemically induced vegetative state.  With behavior-correction audio tracks playing in the background for them.  I like.

Gotta be cheaper than guards, prison riots, large prisons and such.

Not quite what I was getting at...
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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2010, 03:05:21 AM »
That is an interesting idea though for prisoners.  I wonder if the anti capital punishment types would be OK with putting the life sentenced into a vegetative state such as this.

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2010, 03:19:07 AM »
That is an interesting idea though for prisoners.  I wonder if the anti capital punishment types would be OK with putting the life sentenced into a vegetative state such as this.

Not that the anti capital punishment people care, but I wonder which would be less expensive?

My immediate question is if there is any possibility in the future of these people being able to communicate using technology.  That, in my opinion, would be an amazing thing.  A betterment of life for many people, who, as mentioned above, are living in what most people would call a personal hell. 

A living will may be a good idea for myself as well. 
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BobR

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2010, 03:45:45 AM »
A very long time ago I read a book by Dalton Trumbo called Johnny Got His Gun.

It is about a young man who awakens in a hospital but unknown to him an artillery shell has removed his arms, legs and face. The story revolves around his realization of what has happened to him and his attempts to communicate while a prisoner in his body.

It made a pretty good impression on me at the time.

I couldn't fathom being aware but treated as a lump of meat.

bob

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2010, 08:11:51 AM »
I remember reading an article somewhere, here?, about someone who had been misdiagnosed as being in a coma. He was actually aware of what was going on around him, and he was like that for many many many years, at least a decade I believe. Eventually i think his mom got the doctors to do some type of test and they found out what was actually going on and was able to treat him.
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mtnbkr

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2010, 08:12:31 AM »
A very long time ago I read a book by Dalton Trumbo called Johnny Got His Gun.

It is about a young man who awakens in a hospital but unknown to him an artillery shell has removed his arms, legs and face. The story revolves around his realization of what has happened to him and his attempts to communicate while a prisoner in his body.

It made a pretty good impression on me at the time.

I couldn't fathom being aware but treated as a lump of meat.

bob

I believe Metallica's One is derived from that book.  The video contained clips from the movie (old B&W film).

Quote from: Metallica Lyrics
I can't remember anything
Can't tell if this is true or dream
Deep down inside I feel the scream
This terrible silence stops it there

Now that the war is through with me
I'm waking up, I cannot see
That there's not much left of me
Nothing is real but pain now

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god, help me

Back in the womb it's much too real
In pumps life that I must feel
But can't look forward to reveal
Look to the time when I'll live

Fed through the tube that sticks in me
Just like a wartime novelty
Tied to machines that make me be
Cut this life off from me

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god, wake me

Now the world is gone I'm just one
Oh god, help me

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god, help me

Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell

Landmines has taken my sight
Taken my speech
Taken my hearing
Taken my arms
Taken my legs
Taken my soul
Left me with life in hell

Chris

Sindawe

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2010, 08:22:21 AM »
Quote
I believe Metallica's One is derived from that book.

Indeed it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzgGTTtR0kc

I can think of no crueler fate than to be locked in for years on end.

Quote
My immediate question is if there is any possibility in the future of these people being able to communicate using technology

Such is the topic of a recently proposed X Prize.

http://www.xprize.org/media-center/features/bci-x-prize-igniting-a-brain-computer-interface-revolution

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Blakenzy

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2010, 08:28:46 AM »
The movie mentioned in the article is pretty good "The Diving Bell and the Butterfly,"

Nurse communicating with patient who can only blink:
Nurse: "A, B, C, D......I, J, K,"
Patient:-blinks on "K"-> nurse writes down K
Nurse: "A, B, C, D ....G, H, I,"
Patient:-blinks on  "I" -> nurse writes down I
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......I, J, K, L,"
Patient:-blinks on "L"-> nurse writes down L
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.....I, J, K, L,"
Patient -blinks on "L"-> nurse writes down L
Nurse, now hesitantly: "A, B, C, D,.......J, K, L, M,"
Patient:-blinks on "M"-> nurse writes down M
Nurse cries and leaves the room
« Last Edit: February 05, 2010, 08:32:10 AM by Blakenzy »
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2010, 09:37:45 AM »
Another nurse comes in:
Nurse: "A, B, C, D ....G, H, I,"
Patient:-blinks on "I"-> nurse writes down I
Nurse: "A, B, C"
Patient:-blinks on "C" -> nurse writes downC
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......G, H"
Patient:-blinks on "H"-> nurse writes down H
Nurse: "A"
Patient -blinks on "A"-> nurse writes down A
Nurse: "A, B, C, D, E"
Patient:-blinks on "E"-> nurse writes down E
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......I, J, K, L,"
Patient:-blinks on "L"-> nurse writes down L
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......W, X, Y, Z, new word?"
Patient:-blinks on "new word."
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......J, K, L, M,"
Patient:-blinks on "M"-> nurse writes down M
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......L, M, N, O,"
Patient:-blinks on "O"-> nurse writes down O
Nurse: "A, B, C, D,.......L, M, N, O,"
Patient:-blinks on "O"-> nurse writes down O
Nurse, now grinning slightly: "A, B, C, D,.......O, P, Q, R,"
Patient:-blinks on "R"-> nurse writes down R
Nurse, grinning broadly, begins to dropper-feed patient Jack Daniels  =D



Sorry, I couldn't pass that up.  :laugh:
Quote
"The chances of finding out what's really going on are so remote, the only thing to do is hang the sense of it and keep yourself occupied. I'd far rather be happy than right any day."
"And are you?"
"No, that's where it all falls apart I'm afraid. Pity, it sounds like quite a nice lifestyle otherwise."
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Blakenzy

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Re: Vegetative State? Not So Much...
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2010, 09:56:10 AM »
lol :laugh:
"Knowledge will forever govern ignorance, and a people who mean to be their own governors, must arm themselves with the power knowledge gives. A popular government without popular information or the means of acquiring it, is but a prologue to a farce or a tragedy or perhaps both"