Author Topic: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog  (Read 3494 times)

Sergeant Bob

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A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« on: February 18, 2010, 06:12:38 PM »
This could be a pretty important ruling for 2A.

SCOTUSblog
A new gun rights precedent
Lyle Denniston | Thursday, February 18th, 2010 4:57 pm

Washington’s state Supreme Court, deciding an issue that the U.S. Supreme Court will soon face, ruled on Thursday that state and local governments must obey the federal Constitution’s Second Amendment — protecting an individual right to have a gun.  “This right,” the state Court ruled over two  Justices’ protest, ”is necessary to an Anglo-American regime of ordered liberty and fundamental to the American scheme of justice.”

The state Court’s main opinion — reached by a 7-2 vote on the Second Amendment issue —  is here.  A brief concurrence, arguing against reaching the issue of the Second Amendment’s scope, is here, and a concurring-and-dissenting opinion is here.

While the majority said it was not settling on a specific standard for judging the constitutionality of a particular state or local gun control law, it did refuse at this point to embrace the toughest test — that is. finding any such law invalid unless it could satisfy “strict scrutiny.”  It adopted a mixed level looking partly to history and tradition as it upheld a state law limiting gun rights of children under age 18.   The level-of-scrutiny question is one that the Supreme Court may or may not decide when it rules this Term on McDonald v. Chicago (08-1521).

Read the rest of this entry »
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2010, 10:01:43 PM »
Wow. Good one. I wonder if the NRA was involved, or any national pro 2A Org. I've researched and can't find any cite to support any national Org help.

This is the states leading the way. And where we will make some tracks.

And NO. I'm not wanting to bash the NRA with this. I am wanting to know if the NRA or any National Pro Gun Org was helpful. Because if the answer is no. We need to rattle some chains with them.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 01:57:55 AM by Battle Monkey of Zardoz »
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

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With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Silver Bullet

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2010, 04:16:10 PM »
Quote
I am wanting to know if the NRA or any National Pro Gun Org was helpful. Because if the answer is no. We need to rattle some chains with them

Since you're not a member, you don't get a vote.

Go "rattle the chains" of the organizations you belong to.

Thank you.


S. Williamson

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2010, 04:41:47 PM »
Since you're not a member, you don't get a vote.

Go "rattle the chains" of the organizations you belong to.

Thank you.
Well, there went all hopes of polite discussion. ;/
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Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2010, 05:22:27 PM »
Are your wittle feelwins hurt. ?  Leave it be. Tha last thread is dead. I know your stance you know mine. Now leave it alone or some mod will spank us.

Back to the OP. It's a good precedent. One that all states should try to do. Like the 10'amendment push I more than a few states, especially the ones if firearms are made in state they are not fed regulated. Those will be court tested. Only a matter of time.

On this WA case. I can't find any evidence of any gun rights group helping or even aware of it. If true, that's sad.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 05:34:50 PM by Battle Monkey of Zardoz »
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

MicroBalrog

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2010, 05:42:51 PM »
How is it a good precedent?
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

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Silver Bullet

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2010, 07:38:33 PM »
Well, there went all hopes of polite discussion. ;/

Whaddya mean ?  I said "thank you".    =D

Battle Monkey of Zardoz

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2010, 07:48:35 PM »
I guess I should say "your welcome". Or "you told me".  =D
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Sergeant Bob

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2010, 08:05:40 PM »
How is it a good precedent?

Quote
ruled on Thursday that state and local governments must obey the federal Constitution’s Second Amendment — protecting an individual right to have a gun
Personally, I do not understand how a bunch of people demanding a bigger govt can call themselves anarchist.
I meet lots of folks like this, claim to be anarchist but really they're just liberals with pierced genitals. - gunsmith

I already have canned butter, buying more. Canned blueberries, some pancake making dry goods and the end of the world is gonna be delicious.  -French G

MicroBalrog

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2010, 08:09:09 PM »
Destroy The Enemy in Hand-to-Hand Combat.

"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

AJ Dual

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2010, 08:47:18 PM »
Well, considering that the court could have decided that a "child" of 17 could exercise his 2nd Amendment rights under parental supervision, even under the "strict scrutiny" standard, I'm not going to lose sleep over it yet.

If this 17 year old had requested to use or posses a gun, his parents turned them down, and he was then caught, I don't know.. at a gun range or something, perhaps only caught because he was using the firearm for legitimate self-defense, then he'd have some further standing to test 2nd Amendment rights vs. parental rights to supervise and control their young.

Also, I can't imagine that any judge would be 100% unbiased to only consider the "constitutional issues" and not consider the totality of the circumstances.

Quote
Christopher Sieyes was arrested in April 2007 on the Kitsap peninsula, west of Seattle, in April 2007 when he was a passenger in a car stopped for speeding.  A deputy sheriff saw Sieyes reach for something on the floorboard of the car; after the youth had left the vehicle, the officer found the handgun under the seat.   He was found guilty of second-degree firearms possession.  He was sentenced to ten days in juvenile detention, one year of supervision, thirty hours of community service, and a $100 fine.

Call me a hypocrite, and I'll gladly own it. Even as a little-l Libertarian, I'd be perfectly happy with some sort of double-standard that the 17 year old out hunting, or plinking in the countryside be left alone while the 17 year old cruising downtown with his friends still be a situation where the police can intervene.

Micro, I know it irritates you that the judges keep skirting the scrutiny standard for Heller applications, but if I HAVE to choose between judicial activism and judicial restraint, I'll take the judicial restraint any day of the week. Generally speaking, while a lack of activism worked against us in terms or RKBA this time, judicial activism is generally used/abused to do end-runs around the legislature and is generally deleterious to the separation of powers.

If they were to override the state's laws on firearm possession by those under 18 (and as such undermine the legislative branch) then it potentially opens not just a can of worms, but a whole case of cans... Things like "Do children have 4th Amendment protections of their privacy against their parents?", while that might seem like an excellent idea to a libertarian absolutist, I assure you, the bureaucracy that would spring up to enforce those rights would be a nightmare.

IMO it's a wise court that balances the issue of individual rights against eroding the separation of powers which can have disastrous effects for all.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2010, 08:51:56 PM by AJ Dual »
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2010, 09:37:37 PM »
I'm kinda wondering why the NRA et al should get involved in a state case absent a request by a state gun right's group for support?  Especially in a state with a solid state Constitution and a court system that seems to enforce it pretty well (Seattle preemption case).

Further, I'm wondering what standing they might have to address the court in any event?

Maybe, for consistency sake, all us "rugged individualists" might take responsibility for our own locales and quit running to mommy N(ational - think "Federal level")RA-ILA for help first thing or castigating them for not immediately rushing in to hold our wittle hands for us.

Perhaps national resources might be better saved for use in less gun-friendly areas of the nation on cases actually involving Federal law issues?

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Silver Bullet

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2010, 10:28:53 PM »
Excellent points, carebear.

State organizations can deal on a local basis with state laws, but the national RKBA groups are probably the only ones big enough to take on federal laws.  No point in diluting our resources for state skirmishes if the state guys can handle it.  I presume that there are some cases where the state orgs cannot handle it, which is why the NRA helped in San Francisco, Seattle, and Louisiana (Katrina).

The NRA is even fighting international battles.  I got a call tonight requesting a donation to help fight the UN small arms treaty as the socialists might try and apply it to the U.S. 


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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2010, 11:15:26 PM »
Quote
The NRA is even fighting international battles.  I got a call tonight requesting a donation to help fight the UN small arms treaty as the socialists might try and apply it to the U.S. 

hasn't that been supposed to happen, since Clinton. !? ???
“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.”

Abraham Lincoln


With the first link the chain is forged. The first speech censored, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.

Monkeyleg

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #14 on: February 19, 2010, 11:22:00 PM »
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hasn't that been supposed to happen, since Clinton.

It started, but Bush told them to shove it.

Matthew Carberry

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2010, 12:59:47 AM »
As long as we make it clear we're watching I don't think the Administration wants to tangle with us on the Small Arms Treaty or even throw executive orders at gun issues. 

As far as even minor gun issues go they demonstrably didn't have a "real" Senate majority back when they had a technical super-majority; their situation is unlikely to improve in the Senate or House in the mid-terms, the Tenth Amendment movement in the state houses is growing and McDonald's probable outcome is also looming.

"Not all unwise laws are unconstitutional laws, even where constitutional rights are potentially involved." - Eugene Volokh

"As for affecting your movement, your Rascal should be able to achieve the the same speeds no matter what holster rig you are wearing."

MicroBalrog

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2010, 04:37:08 AM »
There are many reasons that this situation is extremely problematic. If you do not mind, I would like to explain my reasons I believe so.

1.There's at least two ways to interpret the term 'activist judiciary'. Some people explain it as a judiciary that actively, and creatively, reinterprets the Constitution to serve modern sensibilities or political purposes – such as the courts ruling that the Federal government has reach to ban you from feeding your own corn to your cows. Others view it as a judiciary which does not take a deferential viewpoint as to the legislative branch opinions on various subjects, and instead throws out everything it rules not to be constitutional. I am not sure which one is the right definition and maybe the attorneys on this forum can help me out. As for me, I view the latter as a great thing.

2.We have in our society several ideas which are not actually true as applied to every single person, but reasonable goals are served if society pretends – even if temporarily – they are true. I do not mean this to criticize society, I'm saying it as a statement of fact. The real problems begin when society begins taking the ideas as literally true all the time

For example, we have the legal concept that people aged less than 18 are all children.  This is obviously not true, but we can't really abolish legal ages of maturity and it's not clear what the alternative to them would be. But when this is carried to its utmost, when you start claiming that a 17-year-old is not legally an adult, that is entirely silly. Remember that, under law, people of that age are still members of the militia. Hell, that young man was driving a car, fueled with gasoline – weapons that compete with firearms in their lethality.

One would like to remind the public that forty years ago, a young man of this age could walk into a gun store and leave with a 20mm anti-tank rifle or order a Hotchkiss cannon through the mail, and that would be perfectly legal. This is a system that worked. It isn't some form of libertarian legal fantasy.

Should the judge have been blind to the circumstances here? I don't know. But the problem is, you can't have one law for suspicious, baggy-pants young men, and another law for reasonable, all-American, young men.

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"...tradition and custom becomes intertwined and are a strong coercion which directs the society upon fixed lines, and strangles liberty. " ~ William Graham Sumner

Scout26

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Re: A New Gun Rights Precedent; SCOTUSblog
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2010, 08:28:06 PM »
Having not read the ruling, but in regards to the "He's 17 issue",  I'll point out that they might be/have felt constrained by the Youth Handgun Safety Act  http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/i/atf-i-5300-2.pdf
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