Author Topic: WSJ New gun rules shift debate  (Read 4486 times)

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WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« on: May 16, 2010, 09:09:29 PM »
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704093204575216680860962548.html?mod=WSJ_hpp_sections_news
WASHINGTON—Mark Snyder, an amateur biathlete, wanted to buy a .22-caliber bolt-action rifle for target shooting and figured the process would take about a week. After nearly six weeks, six visits to police departments and $300 in fees, he secured his rifle.

"I was not expecting a free ride," said Mr. Snyder, 45, "but this is an obstacle course they put in place."

The U.S. Supreme Court overturned the District of Columbia's 32-year ban on handguns in 2008, a victory for the gun-rights lobby that seemed to promise a more permissive era in America's long tussle over gun ownership. Since then, the city has crafted rules that are proving a new, powerful deterrent to residents who want to buy firearms.

Legal gun owners must be registered by the city, a red flag for many in the gun-rights community concerned that registration lists could be used to confiscate firearms. The District limits the number of bullets a gun can hold and the type of firearm residents can buy. It requires that by next year manufacturers sell guns equipped with a special identification technology—one that hasn't yet been adopted by the industry.
The Supreme Court is now deliberating a case challenging handgun bans in Chicago and Oak Park, Ill., which are similar to the former ban in Washington, D.C., and is widely expected to side with gun-rights groups. The experience of Washington, D.C., however, suggests a pro-gun ruling by the Supreme Court doesn't mean an end to the matter. Here, the battle over whether residents can own guns has been replaced by a fresh debate over whether lawmakers can restrict legal gun ownership.

Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia's non-voting representative in Congress, is blunt about the point of the city's laws: discouraging gun ownership.

"To get them you have to go through a bureaucracy that makes it difficult," she said in an interview. Her constituents tend to oppose firearms because of gun violence, she said. "Nobody thinks we would have fewer shootings and fewer homicides if we had more relaxed gun laws."

Kenneth Barnes, 65, became a D.C. gun-law activist after his son was shot to death in his clothing store in 2001. He supports the city's current gun law. "I have no issue with the right to bear arms," but the Supreme Court's decision gave the city the right to set gun laws for its citizens, he said. "What we're talking about is self determination."

In 2009, the first full year the law was in effect, homicides in the city dropped to 143 from 186 in 2008. The 2009 total was the lowest since 1966.

In its 5-4 decision in 2008, known as District of Columbia v. Heller, the court ruled that the Second Amendment includes an individual right to self-defense. In doing so, it struck down the city's 1976 ordinance that effectively banned possession of handguns. The ruling offered little advice on what level of regulation might be permissible, giving the city room to maneuver within the ruling's broad outlines.
One question now is what impact Supreme Court nominee Elena Kagan might have on future gun cases. Her public record on gun rights is limited primarily to positions she held as a Clinton White House lawyer and as a clerk for the late Justice Thurgood Marshall. The National Rifle Association has said it has some concerns and will work with the Senate to formulate some "tough questions" for the nominee on gun rights. With the five-judge majority that ruled on Heller intact, Ms. Kagan's impact on gun rights cases could be limited in the near future.
Gun-control supporters say the District is acting within the Constitution, in that Heller didn't outlaw all gun control. "From our perspective, there's a broad range of gun-control steps that can be taken that would be constitutional post-Heller," said Chad Ramsey of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the National Rifle Association, said the city's new rules strike against the spirit of the Supreme Court's decision. "Can you go out and buy guns in D.C. and defend yourself as the Supreme Court said you should be able to? No. The citizens can't experience the freedom from a practical level. What good is winning it philosophically?"

In the months since the Heller decision through April, the city has registered 1,071 guns, including 756 handguns and 315 "long" guns, such as rifles. That's a rate of about 181 guns per 100,000 residents. Before the Supreme Court decision, the rate of registered guns in Washington was close to zero.

Across the U.S., federal law-enforcement agencies estimate the total number of guns is between 200 million and 350 million, which results in a rate between 65,000 to 114,000 guns per 100,000 people nationally. A 2006 survey by the University of Chicago's National Opinion Research Center found gun ownership in 34% of all homes.

Right now, the legal advantage lies with the District. In a federal District Court ruling in March, Judge Ricardo Urbina upheld the city's gun law, writing that the Supreme Court didn't rule gun registration "unconstitutional as a general matter." The judge concluded the city had the power to limit the kinds of firearms permissible and the size of ammunition magazines.

Gun-rights groups and several plaintiffs, including Mr. Snyder the biathlete, are appealing the ruling. Mr. Synder joined the lawsuit after calling the NRA to complain about the registration process. Stephen Halbrook, an attorney representing the plaintiffs, predicts the case will come back to the Supreme Court for a second review of District gun laws.

The battle in the District stands in contrast with other areas of the country where gun-rights advocates have been enjoying success. Last month, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a law permitting residents 21 years and older to carry concealed weapons without permits. On April 19, armed protesters assembled in federal parks in Virginia, including Gravelly Point Park directly across the Potomac River from Washington, taking advantage of a law signed in 2009 by President Barack Obama that allows visitors to carry loaded firearms into national parks as long as the state allows it.

After the Heller decision, the District's city council passed the Firearms Registration Amendment Act of 2008.

Under the law, would-be gun owners must go through a process requiring fingerprints, photographs and the detailing of some job history.

Applicants have to take a 20-question test on the District's gun laws and regulations. There is a five-hour class, including at least one hour at a gun range, although the city doesn't have a public one. Buyers are required to find trainers from a list approved by police. There is a vision exam, and once the process is complete, the gun must be taken back to the police to be fired for a ballistic identification.

The registration expires after three years and must be renewed. If it lapses, the police can seize the gun, and for a first offense, the owner could be jailed for up to one year and fined $1,000.

The law designates certain guns as assault weapons that can't be bought in the city. It limits the size of the ammunition-feeding devices to no more than 10 bullets. Many common semi-automatic pistols can hold more than that.

In 2011, the city will require semi-automatic pistols owned in the city to be produced with devices that imprint shell casings with a code or serial number as part of the firing process. That would make it easier to link shell casings to guns. The technology, known as micro-stamping or micro-engraving, is in its infancy, and most manufacturers haven't yet adopted it.

Peter Nickles, the District's Attorney General, acknowledged the law requires technology that "may not exist right now. But if you build it they will come. While we are not there yet, there is a lot of science out there and a lot of development."

Many jurisdictions around the U.S. have elements of the District of Columbia's law, but few have all of them. Only Hawaii has a gun registration process, in place since 1988, as strict as the District's and only California has a micro-stamping law, though it hasn't been implemented yet. Gun-rights and gun-control groups agree the city's law is among the most restrictive in the country.

Attorney General Nickles contends the District is on sound legal footing. "The effort that was made by the city council was to come up with a law that balanced the Supreme Court's requirement that we authorize firearms for use in self-defense in the home with public safety," he said. "I think we struck the right balance."

The city is surrounded by jurisdictions that don't have the same laws as the District, Mr. Nickles said. The result is there is a proliferation of illegal guns in the city. "There's no denying the fact that we have a helluva lot of illegal guns on the streets," he said, but the solution isn't to "arm everyone."

Even without the new law, Washington, D.C., presents obstacles to the would-be gun buyer. There are no gun stores in the city. It has few federally licensed firearms dealers—businesses that can transfer a handgun into the city that was bought elsewhere.

The city changed its zoning laws in 2009 to permit gun stores, but no business has tried to open one, according to the Attorney General's office. Only one federally licensed firearms dealer, C.S. Exchange, is performing transfers to the public. Under the law, handguns bought outside the city must be transferred through a licensed gun dealer in the city.

Charles Sykes, owner of C.S. Exchange, conducts business by appointment only. He estimates fees for registration, testing, fingerprinting and transfers can double the cost of a gun. He doesn't think demand would support a fully operational gun store. These days, he can go weeks without making a transfer. "At first you had a rush of people going down to police headquarters to pick up information" on buying guns after the 2008 court decision, he said. "But they didn't rush to get firearms."

Lenwood Johnson sits on a District advisory commission, a body elected to represent neighborhoods with various city authorities. In January, he talked about owning an unregistered gun in a short article in the Washington City Paper, an alternative weekly.

Two days later, he said, the D.C. Metropolitan Police appeared at his apartment on a Saturday and asked to search it. They left after finding nothing.

The following Tuesday, Mr. Johnson, 50, went to the police's gun-registration section and picked up an information packet.

Three days later, police came to his apartment again, with a warrant, after he'd left for work. "They searched every inch, every box, every drawer, the dirty clothes hamper, the cookie jar, and didn't find anything," Mr. Johnson said.

Mr. Johnson said he keeps the gun with relatives in Maryland and decided not to bring the gun into the city and register it. "After what I went through with the District, it's just not worth it." A long-time NRA member, he said he is not an activist and doesn't want to draw attention by raising a ruckus. "I just want to legally own a gun," he said.

Lt. Jon Shelton, who commands the firearms-registration section and gun-control unit, said police went to Mr. Johnson after his public statements that he owned an unregistered gun. "We would be neglecting our duty if we did not."

After the Supreme Court's Heller decision, Lt. Shelton, who has been an officer 22 years, said he expected a "much larger response," than there has been in terms of residents buying firearms. "I had geared up. I anticipated it."

Mr. Snyder, the biathlete, said he contacted the registration division Jan. 20, 2009, about registering a rifle if he bought one. "I wanted to do everything by the book," he said.

He says he was told by police he wouldn't be required to submit to the new training requirements, which didn't go into effect until April 2009. "The steps they gave me were to get the paperwork, buy the gun, have the dealer fill out the paperwork, return the paperwork to the police with a photo, take a test with 20 questions and go through fingerprinting."

He learned later about a safety course he needed. He also had a 10-day waiting period. It took days before an approved trainer called back to set up an appointment. By the time he finished the process, he said, it was Feb. 26, and the $300 in fees he paid had doubled the cost of the rifle.
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Monkeyleg

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2010, 11:05:40 PM »
There's steam coming out of my ears right now. MF's.

gunsmith

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #2 on: May 16, 2010, 11:13:32 PM »
Maybe the SCOTUS needs to send in the Nat Guard to enforce its rulings, are they not just spitting in the Courts eye?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

RoadKingLarry

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2010, 11:18:53 PM »
Quote
...are they not just spitting in the Courts eye?

I really don't thing "they" care. Besides, even if they did care there is not a damn thing they can do about it.
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gunsmith

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #4 on: May 16, 2010, 11:33:45 PM »
Quote
I really don't thing "they" care. Besides, even if they did care there is not a damn thing they can do about it.

Actually, if they rule "strict scrutiny" SCOTUS can really mess with them in a legal sense, like massive fines and putting them in jail ( afaik ianal )


what burns me up is getting a search warrant for his (Johnson's) "un registered gun" jeepers! where are all the radlibs yelling fascist?! What a bunch of whiny cretins, I think every gun owner in the country should call DC Metro Police    (202) 727-9099  and tell them they have "un registered guns"
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

Hawkmoon

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #5 on: May 16, 2010, 11:34:55 PM »
Quote
Eleanor Holmes Norton, the District of Columbia's non-voting representative in Congress, is blunt about the point of the city's laws: discouraging gun ownership.

"To get them you have to go through a bureaucracy that makes it difficult," she said in an interview. Her constituents tend to oppose firearms because of gun violence, she said. "Nobody thinks we would have fewer shootings and fewer homicides if we had more relaxed gun laws."

Not true. Many of us DO think that more guns in private hands would equal fewer shootings and fewer homicides.

Quote
Kenneth Barnes, 65, became a D.C. gun-law activist after his son was shot to death in his clothing store in 2001. He supports the city's current gun law. "I have no issue with the right to bear arms," but the Supreme Court's decision gave the city the right to set gun laws for its citizens, he said. "What we're talking about is self determination."

Unfortunately, he is correct. This is where Mr. Justice Scalia sold us down the river, with his opinion offering that the 2nd Amendment allowed for "reasonable regulation." It doesn't do any such thing. As the saying goes, "What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" It doesn't say "shall not be unreasonably infringed" -- it says "shall not be infringed."

Quote
The city is surrounded by jurisdictions that don't have the same laws as the District, Mr. Nickles said. The result is there is a proliferation of illegal guns in the city. "There's no denying the fact that we have a helluva lot of illegal guns on the streets," he said, but the solution isn't to "arm everyone."

Problem: Lots of illegal guns ... as a result of super-strict regulations.

Solution: Remove the regulations. make all guns legal. Result -- no illegal guns, police are now free to spend time chasing people who commit real crimes.
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AJ Dual

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2010, 11:40:25 PM »
The SCOTUS (majority) in Heller knew this would happen.

The conservative wing of the court is big on judicial restraint, and they want to see "how much gun control is too much" be determined slowly by several court cases, creating a mass of case-law that sets the standard.

I'm confident that D.C. and Chicago (maybe NYC) are way off the reservation of what the judicial case law "consensus" will eventually look like. California... maybe.

I've got a ill-feeling that one of the semi-PITA states like the rest of New York state or MD etc. will wind up looking something like the "acceptable" level that passes the case-law/SCOTUS standard they hope to see form by accretion over time.
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gunsmith

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2010, 11:48:33 PM »
ugh, You may be right AJ , hopefully we'll get to the point where you do not catch a felony for visiting NYC with your handgun you bought in DC after jumping thru the blatantly unconstitutional laws
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

S. Williamson

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2010, 11:58:23 PM »
"Well-regulated" does not carry the same definition it did 200 years ago.

New rule: any US city with a population over one million is made into a District like the District of Columbia: District of Los Angeles, District of New York, District of Philadelphia, etc.  Such districts are now separate entities from their originating states, with separate laws and regulations not binding with the rest of the originating states, ineligible for Federal representation, and are fenced-off (filling with water optional).
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Matthew Carberry

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2010, 04:12:41 AM »
If McDonald comes down with strict scrutiny (or even some bastard intermediate), which any reading of an individual right will almost mandate, then the Heller dicta, which said "may" not "shall" in any event, becomes meaningless.

Public safety is a compelling government interest but there is no way in hell that most existing restrictions, event he ones Scalia listed, will meet the "narrowly tailored and least restrictiive means available" standard.

Note that "least restrictive" means that any given proposed restriction can be compared with any other extant restriction in a similar venue.  If any other city has a less restrictive rule the burden then falls on the city being sued to justify, with facts and statistical data open to our challenge, why they can't simply use the same less restrictive method.

If shall-issue will do the job, which is 100% provable, then may-issue is not defensible.  If other states don't have FOID's but have similar or beter crime rates then FOID's are indefensible. etc. etc.

Heller's dicta was off-hand comments by a Justice who had not examined the actual state of affairs in most of America, the only facts they were looking at were historical. Once we get more than a mere "rational basis test", which even Kagan seems to acknowledge is inevitable by saying the 2nd is a right like the 1st, then we finally get to bring the overwhelming weight of research, by the government itself, to the table.

And we win.
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BridgeRunner

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2010, 09:36:51 AM »
Unfortunately, he is correct. This is where Mr. Justice Scalia sold us down the river, with his opinion offering that the 2nd Amendment allowed for "reasonable regulation." It doesn't do any such thing. As the saying goes, "What part of 'shall not be infringed' do you not understand?" It doesn't say "shall not be unreasonably infringed" -- it says "shall not be infringed."

I'm pretty sure Scalia knows what it says.  Reason can reasonably be inferred. 

Our constitution is simply too short to be a complete guide to all things civil rights.  Few other enumerated fundamental rights are expressly limited by reasonableness, but all of them are in fact subject to reasonable regulation.  You get right back to the adage about how my freedom to swing my fist ends at your nose. 

This is not reasonable regulation though.  I don't know the case law, but when a regulation exists purely to make legal actions of difficult and expensive, that regulation is clearly unreasonable.  That's probably not the threshold for unreasonable, but for more for very clearly unreasonable.

MicroBalrog

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2010, 09:52:30 AM »
Quote
I'm pretty sure Scalia knows what it says.  Reason can reasonably be inferred. 

Maybe so, but he did go on and give a variety of examples of what he considers 'reasonable'.
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zxcvbob

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2010, 03:16:06 PM »
Substitute the word "Bible" or "newspaper" or "vote" for the word "gun" and reread the article.    [barf]
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sanglant

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2010, 09:23:43 PM »
i prefer the words, "condom", "abortion pamphlet", and "playboy". ;)

Hawkmoon

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2010, 09:48:23 PM »
I'm pretty sure Scalia knows what it says.  Reason can reasonably be inferred.  

Our constitution is simply too short to be a complete guide to all things civil rights.  Few other enumerated fundamental rights are expressly limited by reasonableness, but all of them are in fact subject to reasonable regulation.  You get right back to the adage about how my freedom to swing my fist ends at your nose.  

This is not reasonable regulation though.  I don't know the case law, but when a regulation exists purely to make legal actions of difficult and expensive, that regulation is clearly unreasonable.  That's probably not the threshold for unreasonable, but for more for very clearly unreasonable.

I respectfully disagree, Counselor-to-be. We are talking about the Constitution of the United States. The Bill of Rights. "Reason" cannot be "inferred" where reason is not stated. Why not? Because the gentlemen who wrote the thing didn't intend for things to be "inferred." They were familiar with the concept of "reasonable." In writing about searches and seizures, they specifically prohibited "unreasonable" search and seizure. However, in writing about the RKBA, they did NOT say the RKBA shall not be "unreasonably" infringed ... they said the RKBA shall not be infringed. In the overall context of the Bill or Rights, knowing that they knew how to use the 'R' word when and where they wanted to, knowing that they chose not to use it, how can you possibly propose that "reasonable" can be inferred in the 2nd Amendment?
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gunsmith

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2010, 12:01:54 PM »
how can you possibly propose that "reasonable" can be inferred in the 2nd Amendment?

maybe the same way the right to free speech doesn't mean you have the right to yell theater in a crowded fire?
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
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MicroBalrog

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2010, 02:13:40 PM »
maybe the same way the right to free speech doesn't mean you have the right to yell theater in a crowded fire?

And to oppose the draft?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2010, 04:39:13 PM »
maybe the same way the right to free speech doesn't mean you have the right to yell theater in a crowded fire?

Point 1: The 1st Amendment specifically prohibits the Congress (the Federal government) from enacting any "law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances." It does not prohibit the States and/or their subdivisions from enacting laws abridging the freedom of speech.

Point 2: You DO have a right to yell "Fire" in a crowded theater. If the theater was on fire, you would probably be expected to do so. What is prohibited is not yelling "Fire" in a crowded theater, but doing so falsely in order to incite chaos. Even then, you are not prohibited from doing so, but you ARE accountable for the results if you do so for false reasons.

Very different from the universal and unambiguous prohibition expressed in the 2nd Amendment.
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gunsmith

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 05:42:04 PM »
if I'm ever in a crowded fire, I'm yelling theater! >:D
Politicians and bureaucrats are considered productive if they swarm the populace like a plague of locust, devouring all substance in their path and leaving a swath of destruction like a firestorm. The technical term is "bipartisanship".
Rocket Man: "The need for booster shots for the immunized has always been based on the science.  Political science, not medical science."

sanglant

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Re: WSJ New gun rules shift debate
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2010, 05:53:53 PM »
just a thought experiment.


let's assume Michael Moore(just feel like running MM up the road a bit. :angel:) wanted some news coverage of his new movie. so about 20 minutes in he adds(just in the audio track, nothing on screen) in one channel "BOMB, THERE'S A BOMB UNDER MY SEAT!!!!!" if people get trampled. would he be responsible?

just something that popped into my head while reading this thread. sorry about wasting bandwidth, just thought someone might get a laugh out of it.