Author Topic: Is it Probable Cause?  (Read 1413 times)

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Is it Probable Cause?
« on: April 27, 2010, 05:08:32 PM »
Lets say I'm standing on a side walk somewhere.

A cop rounds the corner.  When I see the cop, I take off running in the other direction.

Is this probable cause in the officers eyes?  Can he preform a Terry stop based on my actions?

Thx!

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,991
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2010, 05:09:54 PM »
Only if he can run faster than you. =D
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,548
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #2 on: April 27, 2010, 05:19:03 PM »
I was once "stopped" for that reason.  But since I was standing in front my parents' house, I wasn't really planning on going anywhere. 

Professor Gates can go pound sand. 
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

vaskidmark

  • National Anthem Snob
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,799
  • WTF?
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #3 on: April 27, 2010, 05:21:45 PM »
Can't find the SCOTUS rulings right now, but the progeny of Terry says that yes you can run without creating RS out of that action.

I'll look for them after supper.

stay safe.

skidmark
If cowardly and dishonorable men sometimes shoot unarmed men with army pistols or guns, the evil must be prevented by the penitentiary and gallows, and not by a general deprivation of a constitutional privilege.

Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

AZRedhawk44

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 13,991
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2010, 05:23:20 PM »
Can't find the SCOTUS rulings right now, but the progeny of Terry says that yes you can run without creating RS out of that action.

I'll look for them after supper.

stay safe.

skidmark

So, one can bait the local police with this?  See if they bite, then sue them for wrongful arrest?
"But whether the Constitution really be one thing, or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In either case, it is unfit to exist."
--Lysander Spooner

I reject your authoritah!

cassandra and sara's daddy

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 20,781
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2010, 05:26:07 PM »
again i think there is a court ruling vis a vis "totality of circumstances" that rears its ugly head.
are you a haole junkie in the hood? was the cop coming round the corner in response to a reported crime where the bg matches your description?
is it 90 were you wearing long sleeves and scratching?  lots of variables. in real life figure on getting nabbed if you don't outrun him and the radio
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Hawkmoon

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 27,414
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2010, 05:27:14 PM »
Lets say I'm standing on a side walk somewhere.

A cop rounds the corner.  When I see the cop, I take off running in the other direction.

Is this probable cause in the officers eyes?  Can he preform a Terry stop based on my actions?

Thx!

What is your question: What constitutes probable cause (necessary for an arrest), or what provides grounds for a Terry stop (which does NOT require probable cause, but only a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed)?

The bar is much higher for probable cause than it is for reasonable suspicion.
- - - - - - - - - - - - -
100% Politically Incorrect by Design

Nick1911

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8,492
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #7 on: April 27, 2010, 05:30:59 PM »
What is your question: What constitutes probable cause (necessary for an arrest), or what provides grounds for a Terry stop (which does NOT require probable cause, but only a reasonable suspicion based on clearly articulable facts that a crime has been committed, is being committed, or is about to be committed)?

The bar is much higher for probable cause than it is for reasonable suspicion.

Reasonable suspicion.  Sorry for the unclear terms.

Tallpine

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 23,172
  • Grumpy Old Grandpa
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #8 on: April 27, 2010, 05:43:54 PM »
Lets say I'm standing on a side walk somewhere.

A cop rounds the corner.  When I see the cop, I take off running in the other direction.

Is this probable cause in the officers eyes?  Can he preform a Terry stop based on my actions?

Thx!

I dunno, but please have someone take a video  =D
Freedom is a heavy load, a great and strange burden for the spirit to undertake. It is not easy. It is not a gift given, but a choice made, and the choice may be a hard one. The road goes upward toward the light; but the laden traveller may never reach the end of it.  - Ursula Le Guin

PTK

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,318
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #9 on: April 27, 2010, 05:45:09 PM »
I dunno, but please have someone take a video  =D

And set it to "Yakety Sax" =D
"Only lucky people grow old." - Frederick L.
September 1915 - August 2008

"If you really do have cancer "this time", then this is your own fault. Like the little boy who cried wolf."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,548
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2010, 11:09:01 PM »
Submitted for your consideration:  A short account of my interaction with a cop "behaving stupidly."  Was this harassment?

It was a blustery day, and my parents were not at home.  I was living with them at the time, and doing a bit of yard work that involved a wheelbarrow full of gravel.  I was suitably dressed for the occasion, meaning old jeans, a worn jacket, and a black watch cap.  Scruffy goatee, as usual. 

I was in the driveway, near the road, pushing my wheelbarrow full of stolen electronics gravel, when a police car came over the hill.  I looked up, and remembered that the road had just been paved and I had been meaning to have a closer look at it.  Setting down the wheelbarrow, I began walking toward the hill the car had just crested, still on my parents' property. 

The officer turned around, and began to question me.  He said my walking away from the house as soon as he arrived made him suspicious.  I answered his questions, provided ID, and he ran the plates of the cars in the drive.  Before he drove off, I thanked him for keeping an eye on things. 

Was I harassed?  Were my rights disregarded?  Was this legal?  I don't know.  What do you think?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

Tuco

  • Fastest non-sequitur in the West.
  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 3,139
  • If you miss you had better miss very well
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2010, 11:15:47 PM »
Running from a bar, around a corner to my truck to get a lighter, pack of smokes or my wallet in Detroit's Cass Corridor area in December of 1989, I was stopped by a DPD cruiser.  It accelerated and pulled in front of me, police asked why I was running.  I told them I was cold. 

He said "Thanks" "Wanted to see if I was chasing someone or being chased." 

It's not always nefarious right stomping thugs at work. 
Some do serve and protect.
7-11 was a part time job.

taurusowner

  • Guest
Re: Is it Probable Cause?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2010, 11:26:31 PM »
It is based on totality of the circumstance.  And as the OP put it, the only circumstances we have right now are you standing on the corner and running away.

Terry requires that reasonable suspicion of a crime be present.  As the OP stated it there is none.  However, we don't know what corner this is on, what time of day, what the OP is wearing, etc.  All of these other things are part of reasonable suspicion.  If we take the OPs scenarios at its face, no this is not grounds for a Terry stop.  If we put the OP in red clothing at 11pm in a Crip neighborhood, then the cop may very well have reasonable suspicion.

Nick, you're asking if this is Probable Cause.  That is an error.  Reasonable Suspicion (a lower standard) is all that is required for a Terry stop.  The stop itself may only last as long as it takes the officer to build Probable Cause for an arrest, or to determine that no crime is afoot.

Tuco had a good example.  That was a clear Terry stop.  Given the time and area where Tuco was running, the police had reasonable suspicion a crime could be afoot.  Through the brief conversation it was determined that no crime is taking place, and thus the police were required to terminate the stop.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2010, 11:31:23 PM by Ragnar Danneskjold »