Author Topic: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined  (Read 3331 times)

roo_ster

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Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« on: June 24, 2010, 04:37:09 PM »
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http://charltonteaching.blogspot.com/2010/06/human-capability-peaked-about-1975-and.html


Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined

I suspect that human capability reached its peak or plateau around 1965-75 – at the time of the Apollo moon landings – and has been declining ever since.

This may sound bizarre or just plain false, but the argument is simple. That landing of men on the moon and bringing them back alive was the supreme achievement of human capability, the most difficult problem ever solved by humans. 40 years ago we could do it – repeatedly – but since then we have *not* been to the moon, and I suggest the real reason we have not been to the moon since 1972 is that we cannot any longer do it. Humans have lost the capability.

Of course, the standard line is that humans stopped going to the moon only because we no longer *wanted* to go to the moon, or could not afford to, or something…– but I am suggesting that all this is BS, merely excuses for not doing something which we *cannot* do.

It is as if an eighty year old ex-professional-cyclist was to claim that the reason he had stopped competing in the Tour de France was that he had now had found better ways to spend his time and money. It may be true; but does not disguise the fact that an 80 year old could not compete in international cycling races even if he wanted to.

Human capability partly depends on technology. A big task requires a variety of appropriate and interlocking technologies – the absence of any one vital technology would prevent attainment. I presume that technology has continued to improve since 1975 – so technological decline is not likely to be the reason for failure of capability.

But, however well planned, human capability in complex tasks also depends on ‘on-the-job’ problem-solving – the ability to combine expertise and creativity to deal with unforeseen situations.

On the job problem-solving means having the best people doing the most important jobs. For example, if it had not been Neil Armstrong at the controls of the first Apollo 11 lunar lander but had instead been somebody of lesser ability, decisiveness, courage and creativity – the mission would either have failed or aborted. If both the astronauts and NASA ground staff had been anything less than superb, then the Apollo 13 mission would have led to loss of life.

But since the 1970s there has been a decline in the quality of people in the key jobs in NASA, and elsewhere – because organizations no longer seek to find and use the best people as their ideal but instead try to be ‘diverse’ in various ways (age, sex, race, nationality etc). And also the people in the key jobs are no longer able to decide and command, due to the expansion of committees and the erosion of individual responsibility and autonomy.

By 1986, and the Challenger space shuttle disaster, it was clear that humans had declined in capability – since the disaster was fundamentally caused by managers and committees being in control of NASA rather than individual experts.

It was around the 1970s that the human spirit began to be overwhelmed by bureaucracy (although the trend had been growing for many decades).

Since the mid-1970s the rate of progress has declined in physics, biology and the medical sciences – and some of these have arguably gone into reverse, so that the practice of science in some areas has overall gone backwards, valid knowledge has been lost and replaced with phony fashionable triviality and dishonest hype. Some of the biggest areas of science – medical research, molecular biology, neuroscience, epidemiology, climate research – are almost wholly trivial or bogus. This is not compensated by a few islands of progress, eg in computerization and the invention of the internet. Capability must cover all the bases, and depends not on a single advanced area but all-round advancement.

The fact is that human no longer do - *can* no longer do many things we used to be able to do: land on the moon, swiftly win wars against weak opposition and then control the defeated nation, secure national borders, discover ‘breakthrough’ medical treatments, prevent crime, design and build to a tight deadline, educate people so they are ready to work before the age of 22, block an undersea oil leak...

50 years ago we would have the smartest, best trained, most experienced and most creative people we could find (given human imperfections) in position to take responsibility, make decisions and act upon them in pursuit of a positive goal.

Now we have dull and docile committee members chosen partly with an eye to affirmative action and to generate positive media coverage, whose major priority is not to do the job but to avoid personal responsibility and prevent side-effects; pestered at every turn by an irresponsible and aggressive media and grandstanding politicians out to score popularity points; all of whom are hemmed-about by regulations such that – whatever they do do, or do not do – they will be in breach of some rule or another.

So we should be honest about the fact that human do not anymore fly to the moon because humans cannot anymore fly to the moon. Humans have failed to block the leaking oil pipe in the Gulf of Mexico because we nowadays cannot do it (although humans would surely have solved the problem 40 years ago, but in ways we can no longer imagine since then the experts were both smarter and more creative than we are now, and these experts would then have been in a position to do the needful).

There has been a significant decline in human capability. And there is no sign yet of reversal in this decline, although reversal and recovery is indeed possible.

But do no believe any excuses for failure to do something. Doing something is the only proof that something can indeed be done.

Only when regular and successful lunar flights resume can we legitimately claim to have achieved approximately equal capability to that which humans possesed 40 years ago.
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AJ Dual

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2010, 04:39:47 PM »
It's all managerial, bureaucratic,  and political roadblocks.

One can argue that those have only increased as time has gone on. However the idea that the "rocket scientists themselves" can't think as fast on the fly or whatnot is just... dumb.  =|

If there is any brain-drain, it's because the "experts" are smart enough to avoid those managerial and bureaucratic laden environments.

Cultural problems don't equal technical ones.

But do no believe any excuses for failure to do something. Doing something is the only proof that something can indeed be done.

So if I'm capable of running a marathon, but someone grabs me and throws me in a cell right before the starting gun, I'm no longer "capable" (in the meta-sense) of running a marathon?

That dosen't compute.

I agree with the author's overall premise that we should be doing "more" vis-a-vi space exploration. And it should be manned. The larger (unspoken) point is that until humanity has a permanent self-sustaining presence off of Earth, we're all subject to extinction. All our eggs are in one basket. It's just that his arguments are specious hyperbole intended to shock people.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2010, 04:46:26 PM by AJ Dual »
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MillCreek

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2010, 04:50:43 PM »
Quote
Since the mid-1970s the rate of progress has declined in physics, biology and the medical sciences – and some of these have arguably gone into reverse, so that the practice of science in some areas has overall gone backwards, valid knowledge has been lost and replaced with phony fashionable triviality and dishonest hype. Some of the biggest areas of science – medical research, molecular biology, neuroscience, epidemiology, climate research – are almost wholly trivial or bogus.

He lost me with his claims that medicine, etc. has gone backward and that medical research, molecular biology and neuroscience is trivial or bogus.  I try to keep up with the journals, and there is ample evidence to refute his subjective opinion.
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Iain

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2010, 04:55:02 PM »
Laughing emoticon appears the most appropriate.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2010, 05:01:55 PM »
It's all managerial, bureaucratic,  and political roadblocks.

One can argue that those have only increased as time has gone on. However the idea that the "rocket scientists themselves" can't think as fast on the fly or whatnot is just... dumb.  =|

If there is any brain-drain, it's because the "experts" are smart enough to avoid those managerial and bureaucratic laden environments.



+1.

While I don't put myself on the same level as a rocket scientist, I am a very creative person with a track record of directly addressing and solving technically challenging and initially insurmountable tasks.

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2010, 05:03:24 PM »
JD

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Iain

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2010, 05:08:06 PM »
Ah, that Bruce Charlton, of Medical Hypotheses. He's had his run-ins with my own favoured medical blogger, Orac.

By the way, whether I agree with his firing from MH or not, the reason he was fired was because he ran a paper by Duesberg. Want to see the final paragraph of the abstract? No? Well here it is anyway:

Quote
We conclude that the claims that HIV has caused huge losses of African lives are unconfirmed and that HIV is not sufficient or even necessary to cause the previously known diseases, now called AIDS in the presence of antibody against HIV. Further we call into question the claim that HIV antibody-positives would benefit from anti-HIV drugs, because these drugs are inevitably toxic and because there is as yet no proof that HIV causes AIDS.
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Ben

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2010, 05:17:18 PM »
It's all managerial, bureaucratic,  and political roadblocks.

One can argue that those have only increased as time has gone on. However the idea that the "rocket scientists themselves" can't think as fast on the fly or whatnot is just... dumb.  =|

If there is any brain-drain, it's because the "experts" are smart enough to avoid those managerial and bureaucratic laden environments.

Cultural problems don't equal technical ones.

+2

We have BRILLIANT people around today. Just look around you at the technology in your own home -- at the technology that allows you to read this forum. IMO, what we've become is a nation that has advanced in safe things. We're every bit as brilliant, perhaps more so than we were 50 years ago, but we've developed a culture that has an aversion to risk.

If the Challenger disaster had happened in 1950, would we have stopped the shuttle program for I forget how long it was, but a long while, or would we have gotten right back on the horse and said the risk is worth the gain? We have a great pool of brilliant people willing to take a risk, but for projects like our space program, inherently risky but run by risk-averted bureaucracies, we hamper our brilliance in red tape, so we don't see the advances that we might otherwise accomplish.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2010, 10:05:15 PM »
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0186566/



The triumph of capability over technology.
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grampster

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2010, 10:08:38 PM »
Hmmmm.  the quality of posts on APS seems to bear out the thesis. :P [popcorn] =D
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dm1333

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2010, 10:30:03 PM »
I was sort of with the article until this;

Quote
Since the mid-1970s the rate of progress has declined in physics, biology and the medical sciences – and some of these have arguably gone into reverse, so that the practice of science in some areas has overall gone backwards, valid knowledge has been lost and replaced with phony fashionable triviality and dishonest hype. Some of the biggest areas of science – medical research, molecular biology, neuroscience, epidemiology, climate research – are almost wholly trivial or bogus. This is not compensated by a few islands of progress, eg in computerization and the invention of the internet. Capability must cover all the bases, and depends not on a single advanced area but all-round advancement.

Medical research, molecular biology and neuroscience are trivial or bogus?  The author can keep the medical care and research available in 1975, I'll take what is available in 2010, thank you very much.

Monkeyleg

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2010, 10:52:03 PM »
If you'd have told the engineers at NASA in the 1970's that you could fit a dozen terabytes of data on a device the size of an eight-track tape, they would have had you committed to an asylum.

Getting to the moon was not as difficult technologically as any number of other human achievements. I really get tired of the cliche. (i.e., If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we stop crime?)

S. Williamson

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2010, 11:20:50 PM »
If we can make caseless ammo, why can't we cure cancer?  :mad:


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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2010, 01:02:31 AM »
Quote
That landing of men on the moon and bringing them back alive was the supreme achievement of human capability, the most difficult problem ever solved by humans.
No. Electricity was the supreme achievement of human capability. It has transformed our lives. It is the reason you don't spend hours a day gathering firewood just so you can eat hot food. It provides a massive increase in productivity and a much, much higher standard of living. After hot food comes hot water - to wash you, your clothes, and your dishes. With ease. Then comes central heat and air. You don't freeze in the winter or boil in the summer.

Perd Hapley

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2010, 01:23:36 AM »
Paging MicroBalrog...
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MechAg94

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2010, 08:09:20 AM »
The remarkable thing is that they were able to do the moon launch with the pneumatic and analog technology of the time, and they were only 10 years or more beyond the first satellites.  I still don't think it is the single greatest accomplishment.  

A similar accomplishment to the moon landings is the huge constellations of satellites we have now have orbiting the Earth.  

After those astronauts were killed in the fire inside the capsule, didn't they delay any more launches for a couple years?  Had there not been political pressure to get to the moon, how long would that delay have been?  

Regarding bureaucratic BS, I think a some of the problems stem from the huge flows of govt money into all sorts of research.  Combine that with the aversion to risk in a lot of endeavors and you get a LOT of inefficiency.  I knew a guy who worked for Boeing for a little while and he said the system there seems to be set up to prevent anyone from designing anything or changing anything.  For every person putting out something new, there are 10 people to review it and tell them no.  
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HankB

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2010, 09:03:54 AM »
NASA capability went down as LBJ's "Great Society" programs kicked in.

The politicians we elected felt that rather than shoot money into space, they should flush it down the toilet of welfare, AFDC, CHIPS, food stamps, urban renewal, diversity enhancement, forced busing, Methadone clinics, needle giveaways . . . a nearly endless list of "programs" to benefit the eaters at the cost of the producers.

By some accounts, the money spent on this crap, plus interest, accounts for the lion's share of the national debt.
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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2010, 09:35:05 AM »
This man's paper passed his thesis like two ships in the night.

But I concur with one of his premises--in the modern West our culture of bureaucracy and affirmative action is severely hamstringing us.
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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2010, 10:01:34 AM »
I think that "we" as people could go back to the moon inside of five years, if the money was there and bureaucracy got out of the way.  But I don't think that "we" as a country could go back to the moon inside of five years, because bureaucracy won't get out of the way, and so the money won't be there.

During the Apollo and preceding programs, everyone at NASA had a goal, and (the critical part) it was the same goal.  To put a man on the moon, and get him safely back to earth. 

At NASA now, everyone has a goal, but many of those goals are different from one another: some people want to put people into space, and some people want to make certain that the people who go are of a sufficiently-balanced skin-tone gradient, and some people want to make certain that the widgets are bought from companies run by people who fit into diversity checkboxes, regardless of how good they are at making widgets...

You can haul a lot with a team of horses, if they're all pulling in the same direction.  But when each horse wants to go somewhere different, you get nowhere, and sometimes the wagon falls over.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2010, 10:11:29 AM »
So.

Norman Borlaug saving a billion people from starvation is not as awesome an accomplishment as getting on the moon?

Ada Yonath making game-breaking accomplishment in not as awesome an accomplishment as getting on the moon?

Walk-away-safe nuclear plants? Anti-retroviral treatments? Cures for dozens of types of cancers, HBV treatments?

None of that counts now?
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Ben

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2010, 10:16:02 AM »
You can haul a lot with a team of horses, if they're all pulling in the same direction.  But when each horse wants to go somewhere different, you get nowhere, and sometimes the wagon falls over.

Which clarifies my poorly made point in my first post -- it's not that we won't see advances that require risk to human life, it's that doing something risky like putting people on Mars will take a lot longer in today's culture than in 1950's culture. "Safe" things -- like advancements in IT -- advance at too great a rate for me to even keep up, and as pointed out earlier, would cause 1950's scientists' heads to spin.
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BrokenPaw

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2010, 10:25:05 AM »
None of that counts now?

I don't know if that was directed at me, but if it was:  I'm not saying that we should be going back to the moon right now.  I'm saying that we could, capability-wise, if that was what we set out to do.

I happen to think that, as you point out, there are things that are harder than going to the moon, that we should be (and are) doing.

We just need to remember what happened to NASA:  40 years ago, it could put someone on the moon.  Today it could not, because it became bureaucratized.  We need to remember that, lest bureaucracy take other ventures that are currently capable of doing remarkable things, and neuter them in the name of "diversity", "equality", "safety", and "fairness".

Before someone jumps all over me about safety:  There is risk inherent in moving forward.  As long as that risk is understood by all involved (and particularly by the ones at risk), there is no reason (other than bureaucratic) for halting progress simply to mitigate that risk.  Every astronaut in the Apollo program knew what had happened in the fire at Apollo 1, and every one continued in the program voluntarily.

We've become so "risk" and "safety" aware that rules are now more important than goals:  witness the oil-skimming barges in the Gulf who were shut down by the Coast Guard because (if I recall correctly) they could not verify that there were a sufficient number of life jackets aboard.  Oh.  My.  God.   

Heaven forfend that someone should do a critical task, voluntarily, without a government nanny making sure all the corners are properly padded.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Human capability peaked before 1975 and has since declined
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2010, 10:40:53 AM »
There are also things that are more important than going to the Moon that humanity did.

I'm addressing the original article, not you, of course.

It's supreme arrogance to claim humanity has 'failed' because it had not accomplished your pet goal.
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