Author Topic: "accidental" self-defense?  (Read 2410 times)

geronimotwo

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"accidental" self-defense?
« on: November 10, 2010, 12:56:53 PM »
http://thedailystar.com/localnews/x176178331/Witness-Hull-said-shooting-was-a-blur

here is a blurb about the appeal that a local man is attempting.  in 2006, he was arrested for shooting his neighbor.  at that time his defense attorney claimed the shooting was "accidental self-defense".  has anyone heard of this tactic before or was the lawyer totally out of his mind?
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Ned Hamford

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2010, 01:04:28 PM »
the lawyer was totally out of his mind

This
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MillCreek

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2010, 01:08:30 PM »
I have certainly heard of this tactic used when trying to get homeowners' liability coverage for a shooting.  Shooting someone, even in justified self-defense, often results in a civil liability suit.  When this happens, people turn to their personal liability insurance for coverage.  However, most homeowners'/renters' liability policy exclude coverage for 'intentional acts'.  There have been many appellate court cases across the country finding that shooting someone is an intentional act and therefore there is no insurance coverage.

But there have been findings of coverage for accidental shootings.  In some states, and depending on the specific fact pattern, if you can convince the Court that you shot someone by accident, you might get liability insurance coverage for this.  It rarely happens, but it might be worth a try, depending on the case law in your jurisdiction.  

In the criminal context, I would imagine that claiming it was an accident means that you had no intent to shoot someone, and therefore you might get a lesser charge, such as manslaughter or negligent homicide, which generally carry less severe penalties for a conviction.  
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Ned Hamford

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2010, 03:09:24 PM »
Its rather tough to imagine what a 'good' defense tactic would be for some pretty damning fact patterns.  Defendant and all the witness all agree that the D and V had an argument, D went and got his gun, D returns to V and has louder argument, D charges V with gun pointed at his head and it 'goes off.'

:Ned Hamford has no interest in arguing with people that are pointing a gun at his head:
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geronimotwo

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2010, 05:32:36 PM »
in my mind, if it were self defense, then it's no accident.  and how can you claim you were fearing for your life if it is an accident?
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Ned Hamford

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2010, 05:44:43 PM »
He is trying to justify the waving a gun about in the first place. 
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230RN

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2010, 08:08:08 PM »
"How can you say it was accidental when you got him right between the eyes?"

"I was aiming at the ground as a warning and I missed... I'm a really terrible shot."

"Then how come the records show that you were practicing at the range 42 times in the last year?"

"I'm trying to get to be a better shot."



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« Last Edit: November 10, 2010, 08:24:13 PM by 230RN »

El Tejon

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2010, 07:52:06 AM »
Accidental self-defense? ???

Talk about a novel legal theory. =D
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Devonai

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2010, 08:57:20 AM »
I suppose you could argue that you meant to grab your Fox Labs, but in the heat of the moment you grabbed your SAW instead and stitched him up.  Oops.
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AZRedhawk44

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2010, 09:18:29 AM »
Quote
Shooting someone, even in justified self-defense, often results in a civil liability suit.  When this happens, people turn to their personal liability insurance for coverage.  However, most homeowners'/renters' liability policy exclude coverage for 'intentional acts'.  There have been many appellate court cases across the country finding that shooting someone is an intentional act and therefore there is no insurance coverage.

Has anyone come up with actual insurance against civil suit liability in the event of justifiable homicide or serious injury to a criminal?

I could see it working as:
-You, Mr. CCW Holder, can buy insurance from us for $X a month.
-If you are brought to court for a civil suit regarding a self defense incident AND YOU ALREADY have been cleared of charges by the DA with authority over any criminal charges, or been found not guilty in a court of law...
-We will pay your attorney fees to fight a civil suit, and also any awarded damages if the civil suit is lost.

Seems it would be a service that would have a lot of potential customers, and very little potential claims.  Especially when you consider that most civil suits of this nature are emotionally driven rather than logically driven, or an attempt to shake someone down and make them settle for $50k out of court.  When you're suing a team of insurance lawyers and a corporate entity rather than a single person, the suit becomes less appealing and is less likely to be initiated in the first case.
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230RN

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2010, 04:46:46 PM »
Hmmmm.... not sure about that.  I suspect they'd be more likely to sue if a deep-pocketed insurance company is involved, as opposed to a shallow-pocketed individual.

I think what happens there is the insurance company settles out of court with a mutual agreement to request the judge to dismiss the case as settled and seal the records or something of that sort.  So that it can't be used as a precedent.

Something like that. 

Terry, 230RN

AZRedhawk44

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2010, 04:50:55 PM »
Does any State have a law that says something along the lines of "If you shoot someone and it's decreed a good shoot from a criminal perspective, this law hereby exculpates you from civil liability"?  Aside from Castle Doctrine (which only applies to home)?
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Hawkmoon

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2010, 02:48:59 PM »
Does any State have a law that says something along the lines of "If you shoot someone and it's decreed a good shoot from a criminal perspective, this law hereby exculpates you from civil liability"?  Aside from Castle Doctrine (which only applies to home)?

Florida.

And some other states in the wings, with laws based on Florida's in the works. Too bad Pennsylvania's attempt blew it. Even if the proposed PA law passes, it won't do what's needed.
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Tallpine

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2010, 06:22:49 PM »
You know, I have to wonder about the logical reasoning of someone who would sue someone who has already shot and killed a member of their family  >:D
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RevDisk

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Re: "accidental" self-defense?
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 06:54:33 PM »
Florida.

And some other states in the wings, with laws based on Florida's in the works. Too bad Pennsylvania's attempt blew it. Even if the proposed PA law passes, it won't do what's needed.

Last I saw it did include immunity from civil liability.  We'll see if it passes this year on monday.
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