Author Topic: Fistful was sentenced in court today...  (Read 1728 times)

AZRedhawk44

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Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« on: February 04, 2011, 11:10:19 PM »
http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Judge+bans+with+from+having/4225699/story.html

 :lol:

The nanny state is so pervasive in the UK that they're gonna try and stop a mentally handicapped person from, well... you know... [popcorn]
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Boomhauer

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2011, 11:14:29 PM »
Quote
Under the Mental Capacity Act 2005, its judges have the power to make life-or-death decisions for people deemed to lack the intelligence to make them for themselves - such as ordering that they undergo surgery, have forced abortions, have life-support switched off or be forced to use contraception.

This sickens me...

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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 12:06:00 AM »
Quote
The judge concluded: "Alan does not have the capacity to consent to and engage in sexual relations.

Read more: http://www.vancouversun.com/life/Judge+bans+with+from+having/4225699/story.html#ixzz1D3eEQOPu

I'm not sure what's so wrong with that. If the guy's retarded, shouldn't he be protected from people that take advantage of him, much like the law protects children?  ???
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Northwoods

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 12:20:22 AM »
I'm not sure what's so wrong with that. If the guy's retarded, shouldn't he be protected from people that take advantage of him, much like the law protects children?  ???

If he's that incapacitated he should be in an institution.  Otherwise he should be able to satisfy his urges with another willing, consenting partner.  There was no inference that his partner was abusing him, or even any less retarted himself.  In that sense it would be closer to asking if the courts should prohibit two 13 year olds from getting it on.  The conduct itself is not illegal, so there shouldn't be any power to restrict it.  Yeah, I know, 13 is below the age of consent, but that only applies (AFAIK) when one is significantly older (e.g. 16 and 13).

Now, all that said, I don't think two 13 year olds should be having sex, and this guy is clearly not able to form a relationship in which sexual activity would be proper.  But I don't think it should be up to the courts to enforce abstinance.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 12:54:01 AM »
I am not sure if all mentally incompetent individuals should be in institutions.

Either way, if a man cannot properly make a decision on whether  to have sex or not, how can he be banned from having sex? As in, how can he be held responsible for violating the court's decision, if he can't make a decision for himself on this topic?

Wouldn't it be more correct to punish those sane individuals who choose to have sex with him?

I do not however know if this man is mentally incompetent in the true sense. IQ is age related, so he has the IQ of a - a small child? Help me here, experts.
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vaskidmark

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 07:12:26 AM »
Retardation and competence are not the same.  The first is a comparison between the individual and the population's norm for intellectual functioning.  The latter is a legal construct regarding one's ability to care for one's self regarding certain areas of life activity.

IQ measurement is smoke and mirrors at best, and a sham of that at both far ends of the bell curve.  Actual functionality may often be a better indicator of the extent to which the individual lags behind the norm, and the extent of that lag.  Back in the bad old days when terms such as "idiot," "moron." and the like were both psychological and legal terms, it was easier to figure out who needed help tying their shoes and who needed diapers and a drool bib.  As for "having the mental capacity of a small child" - remember that the arithmetical norm's  "small child'" IQ is adjusted to be 100 when compared against other "small children" but gets reduced when compared to the arithmetical norm "adult".

My ex-sister-in-law had a measured IQ of 165, but could not maintain a household or personal budget, literally needed someone to hold her hand to make sure she did not cross the street in front of oncoming traffic, and if given two weeks notice would not be able to be dressed and ready to attend her own funeral on time.  While in no way "retarded" she was a perfect candidate for failing a competency hearing as she could not, among other things, responsibly handle her own finances and was proven incapable of protecting herself from harm even though she could explain why walking out in front of oncoming traffic was dangerous.

I have not read the EU's list of human rights, but have read several news articles explaining that even persons sentenced to life inprisonment have a right to sex and to procreate.  I feel comfortable in suggesting that if Alan can determine that sex with Kieron, with whom Alan has apparently lived for some time, make him happy that Alan has sufficient intellectual capacity to benefit from pretty much the full list of the EU's list of human rights.  It appears from the article that he already has someone who handles his finances, and who arranges to see that he receives needed medical care, and that he is housed, clothed and fed and obtains appropriate recreation, and that within those limitations he is able to function and establish/carry on a meaningful interhuman relationship with at least one significant other.

Unless Alan and Kieron are just jumping the one other's bones whenever the horniness strikes one of them, regardless of the desires/acceptance of the other - in which case it would be rape.  Or, to cover all bases, if Kieron is of "normal" functioning ability, it would be criminal exploitation as well as rape.  In as much as the Courts decided not to persue either avenue, I'm willing to guess that was not the case.

"Moderate learning disability" is used to describe Alan, yet most folks who are diagnosed with "intellectual disabilities" (remember that discussion?) do not also receive a diagnosis of learning disability as it is both redundant and difficult to separate from the retardation.  Wikipedia describes moderate retardation - Alan's level, as
Quote
People with moderate mental retardation need considerable supports in school, at home, and in the community in order to participate fully. While their academic potential is limited, they can learn simple health and safety skills and to participate in simple activities.[3] As adults they may live with their parents, in a supportive group home, or even semi-independently with significant supportive services to help them, for example, manage their finances. As adults, they may work in a sheltered workshop.[3]
  That refutes the claim that providing Alan with sex education would merely confuse him.

There is no information to suggest that Kieron was eploiting or abusing Alan, or that either of them were disagnosed with a STD or were high-risk for becoming infected with a STD, nor any indication that their physical relationship had created any other medical problems.

I think what we have here is a Council and Court who are a bunch of prudes.  Either that or there is so much more to the case that a statement of the reason why more information about Alan and/or Kieron could not be released should have been included.

stay safe.
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Perd Hapley

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 09:12:46 AM »
Either way, if a man cannot properly make a decision on whether  to have sex or not, how can he be banned from having sex? As in, how can he be held responsible for violating the court's decision, if he can't make a decision for himself on this topic?

Wouldn't it be more correct to punish those sane individuals who choose to have sex with him?

From the article, it doesn't seem that anyone is being punished, just supervised and prevented from having sexual contact.


  Otherwise he should be able to satisfy his urges with another willing, consenting partner.  There was no inference that his partner was abusing him, or even any less retarted himself. 

There is no information to suggest that Kieron was eploiting or abusing Alan, or that either of them were disagnosed with a STD or were high-risk for becoming infected with a STD, nor any indication that their physical relationship had created any other medical problems.

If his partner were female, the above quotations might make more sense. As it is, any sensible court would take into account that Alan's "natural sexual urges" are not healthy, and could indeed lead to "medical problems." Maybe this court actually has some sense.

No, I'm not suggesting that homosexuality should be banned by the government. But such nanny-state measures may actually be appropriate where the government is actually acting as a nanny to wards of the state like Alan.
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roo_ster

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
But such nanny-state measures may actually be appropriate where the government is actually acting as a nanny to wards of the state like Alan.

Pretty much my take on the matter.  

Self-supporting and running your own life?  GTFO, .gov.  Ward of the state and/or taking taxpayer support to get by?  You've just invited me and every other taxpayer to make your business our business.

Including with whom you're bumping uglies.

Don't like it?  Support your own self, then.
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MicroBalrog

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 09:47:02 AM »
Quote
From the article, it doesn't seem that anyone is being punished, just supervised and prevented from having sexual contact.

I sort of assumed the court issued Alan a court order not to have sex. I may have misread the article.
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 10:08:44 AM »
From the article, it doesn't seem that anyone is being punished, just supervised and prevented from having sexual contact.


If his partner were female, the above quotations might make more sense. As it is, any sensible court would take into account that Alan's "natural sexual urges" are not healthy, and could indeed lead to "medical problems." Maybe this court actually has some sense.
No, I'm not suggesting that homosexuality should be banned by the government. But such nanny-state measures may actually be appropriate where the government is actually acting as a nanny to wards of the state like Alan.

I promise you the progressive nanny state would never tell a homosexual with a reasonable IQ that their sexual urges aren't "natural".  This is a clear double standard of the nanny state if I've ever seen one. 
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seeker_two

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 10:43:13 AM »
Sounds like eugenics is alive and well in the UK...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

BTW, in the Texas "state school" for the mentally retarded I used to work at, the residents are not allowed to have consenusal sex with each other, either....
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Northwoods

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 12:49:45 PM »
BTW, in the Texas "state school" for the mentally retarded I used to work at, the residents are not allowed to have consenusal sex with each other, either....

Nor was that allowed between the "residents" at the juvie prison I worked at.  But those are institutions to which the inmates are forcably in residance.  So to be comperable the home that was supervising him should have been held responsible for ensuring their rules are followed.  Instead the courts ruled the guy was too stupid to consent. 
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Jamisjockey

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 02:20:38 PM »
I am NOT a fan of anyone who hasn't committed a crime being remanded to the custody of the state.  Let me state that up front.

However, what is so abhorrent about this case is that the man in question is being allowed to be out in public, so therefore he must have some level of decision making competence.  So, if he is not being remanded to the custody of the state, then how dare they tell a free person what he may or may not do?
JD

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vaskidmark

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 04:05:59 PM »
Jamis haz the understanding.

Since society has decided that Alan can be allowed to live with mere supervision, as opposed to custodial care, why they wish to intervene in his private affairs without proof that he either cannot function without presenting a danger to himself or others or is totally incompetent to manage his life as regards a sexual relationship with Kieron (or any other person) is beyond the pale of reckoning.  The complaint was only that
Quote
[T]he 41 year-old had been in a relationship with a man with whom he lived and told officials "it would make me feel happy" for it to continue.  But his local council, which provides his accommodation, decided his "vigorous sex drive" was inappropriate and that with an IQ of 48 and a "moderate" learning disability, he did not understand what he was doing.

Thus it appears that there may have been multiple violations of the European Union Charter of Human Rights http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:C:2010:083:0389:0403:EN:PDF - specifically Articles 1, 7, 11, 14, 21, 26, 31, 35, 41, 47, and/or 54.

Again, I have no idea what the Council's notion of his "vigorous sex drive" was, or what level of sex drive they would have preferred to see.  However, I find nothing in the EU Charter that gives them the right to make that decision for him.  As for the complaint that he "did not understand what he was doing" - I say that if he can express that it makes him feel happy and no evidence is presented that he was being forced, coerced, or exploited then it was none of their business.  If any of those conditions existed it was their business to protect him by bringing criminal and/or civil charges against the person(s) taking advantage of Alan.

This notion that because Alan is on the public dole the public has some inherent right in saying how Alan may or may not behave is incomprehensible.  If he meets the eligibility standards then he ought to receive the services and financial assistance he qualifies for.  If one wants to see a public work requirement (an IQ of 48 is well capable of sweeping the gutters or performing other menial public service) then make that a condition that all receiving the assistance must meet.  If you want to prevent adding more children to the public welfare rolls then make it a condition that children born while on the dole to not garner additional public financial support.  But since Alan's relationship was with another man, I do not see how that could even be an issue.

All I see is a bunch of blue-noses showing their desire to censure someone who they apparently believe is an inferior.  The notion of untermenchen hopefully remains repugnant to the civilized world.

stay safe.
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Hey you kids!! Get off my lawn!!!

They keep making this eternal vigilance thing harder and harder.  Protecting the 2nd amendment is like playing PACMAN - there's no pause button so you can go to the bathroom.

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 04:52:52 PM »
I think they're just jealous that he has a vigorous sex drive and they don't.  ;)
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zxcvbob

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Re: Fistful was sentenced in court today...
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 05:11:03 PM »
If he was being screwed by a woman instead of another man, I bet the courts would keep their nose (figuratively) out of his business.
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