Author Topic: Is it hubris...  (Read 9464 times)

Tallpine

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #25 on: March 15, 2011, 11:00:58 AM »
They just need to build a reactor to withstand Murphy  ;)
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AJ Dual

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #26 on: March 15, 2011, 11:54:48 AM »
They just need to build a reactor to withstand Murphy  ;)

Those would be RTG's. They can survive catastrophic re-entry from failed space probe launches.

Downsides, thermal efficiency in warm climates is lessened. And there's an upper limit to which the thermocouple/Peltier effect can extract energy.

Hooking the RTG up to a Stirling-cycle engine shows some promise though.

The main problem is that Plutonium has about the absolute BEST decay rate and thermal radiation output properties. Most everything else has too short a half-life, or other problems with the nature of it's decay. Plutonium has an estimated cost of about $4000 per ounce. The average NASA RTG for deep space probes that operate past Mars, where solar panels aren't effective anymore has roughly/ballpark half a million dollars of Plutonium in it, to produce a few hundred watts.

And that does not include all the other engineering costs, or the exotic metals and rare-earths needed to make the most efficient thermocouples possible.

All terrestrial use of RTG's has been for Soviet/Russian unmanned lighthouse beacons in remote arctic areas, or small USAF/SAC/RCAF unmanned radars deployed in the extreme north of Alaska and Canada.

The radar's interest me, because as best I can tell, such phased-array radars when deployed in portable form on the battlefield are serviced by 20kW diesel field generators.

So it's either one hell of an RTG, or a "farm" of smaller ones. Curious...
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Headless Thompson Gunner

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 01:15:42 PM »
There are 120 plus of the same type and age  reactor here in the US.  That's why the greenies are so worried. 

No, the greenies are "worried" because they have an anti-nuke agenda, and will take any opportunity to exaggerate risks and problems.

HankB

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2011, 01:35:32 PM »
No, the greenies are "worried" because they have an anti-nuke energy agenda, and will take any opportunity to exaggerate risks and problems.
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* Nukes are bad because of radioactivity - Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, and now Japan.
* Coal plants are bad because of Global Warming and Acid Rain.
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S. Williamson

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #29 on: March 15, 2011, 08:37:49 PM »
Geothermal is bad because it's a non-renewable resource.  ;)
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sanglant

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #30 on: March 15, 2011, 08:43:56 PM »
well that and the whole solidifying the core thing.* [tinfoil]










yeah i know, only a problem in MM world. but that's where most of the press lives. :facepalm:

erictank

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #31 on: March 15, 2011, 08:49:28 PM »
The only logical course of action is to build underground reactors on the moon and transmit the power to Earth.

Would prefer large solar-receptor satellites to underground nukes on the moon, myself.

To which notion they (Greenies) will scream, "DEATH RAY FROM SPACE!!!11!!1!!one!!" :facepalm:

There IS no correct answer, for them, which does not involve returning most of humanity to a technological state ranging from 300-500 years ago.

The enlightened few, of course (read: them), will retain all the benefits of modern technology.

One wonders how they plan to MAINtain it, though...

sanglant

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #32 on: March 15, 2011, 09:06:56 PM »
they plan to be one of the 500 humans on the planet. =|

we'll have to live as apes, probably in zoos.

erictank

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #33 on: March 15, 2011, 09:12:09 PM »
Coal plants give off several times the radiation of any nuclear power plant.  Plus, they vent a LOT of thorium directly into atmo.  You're more likely to get mutated off a coal plant than a nuclear power plant.  Even the law is as dumb as most people are.  If any nuke plant was giving off the radiation of a coal plant, they'd have the NRC on site demanding a LOT of answers. 

This.

Heck, the COMPANY would have been all over us, if we exceeded company discharge limits (which were well below state and federal limits), when I worked at North Anna.

They don't want that kind of attention!

I seem to recall some of the most modern reactor designs now are self-limiting, in that you have to actively push them up to criticality, and if you left them alone they would default to a sub-critical state pretty much no matter what. It has been a few years since I've read much about them though, does anyone else have any info? (As has been stated, these reactors having the problems are "old tech," and not likely to be self-limiting.)

Reactors in the US are required by law to have negative reactivity coefficients in the power range (when at normal operating conditions between ~0-100% of rated power, as opposed to the Intermediate or Startup Ranges, which are many orders of magnitude lower).  What that means is, as you suggest, they are "self-limiting".  With no action, the plant will seek to shut itself down from the Power Range.  Chernobyl, as a counter-example, had a POSITIVE reactivity coefficient - once they got themselves in trouble, the reactor ran away from them and went prompt-critical.  Near-instantaneous spike orders of magnitude above 100%-power, steam explosion, rod ejection, containment breach, meltdown ...  Nasty.  The report from the Russian Academy of Sciences about that incident read like a comedy of errors - they did EVERYTHING wrong leading up to the actual incident. Wish I still had a copy of it, but it's been quite some time (I got it from work, when I was at North Anna).  Not sure what Japan permits for their reactors, but if the designs are the same as our BWRs here in the US, I'd think they'd have to have the same negative reactivity coefficients as ours.

Unfortunately, the Gen-2 reactors, like the Fukushima plants and pretty much every plant in the US, use active safety systems, which require power and/or operator action in many cases to shut down and maintain safe-shutdown conditions.  The Gen-3 designs, which are just starting to get approved here in the US, are designed to use PASSIVE safety systems - no power or operator action required.  But people are still standing in the way of those being built.  =| ???  Because, y'know, it'd just be STUPID to build safer plants...

AJ Dual

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #34 on: March 15, 2011, 11:15:13 PM »
Would prefer large solar-receptor satellites to underground nukes on the moon, myself.

To which notion they (Greenies) will scream, "DEATH RAY FROM SPACE!!!11!!1!!one!!" :facepalm:

Death ray? Well... that's a little over-wrought, don't you think?

However, the microwave beam would probably heat up excess facial piercings something fierce.  >:D
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Northwoods

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #35 on: March 16, 2011, 12:06:42 AM »
One thing I've noticed, and appreciate, about most of us here at APS is that in regards to most topics we are logical and relatively immune to the emotional response that most of our society exhibits when something like the nuclear power issues in Japan occurs.

If even 25% of the population were reliably able to detach themselves from those emotional ploys by the left we'd be leagues ahead in the fight against crepping leftism.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #36 on: March 16, 2011, 07:06:50 PM »
I'm not so impressed with the reactors in Japan only being built to stand up to a 7.0 quake.

According to at least one article, mag 7 is what they could take without having to shut down, and 8.2 with a shutdown and minor repairs.  Magnitude being a logarithmic scale, 8.9 is a heck of a lot more than 8.2, and extremely rare anywhere.  It's like the difference between building an APC that can handle several AK47 hits, and building one that can keep going while a dozen A-10s are dumping everything they've got on it.

AJ Dual

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Re: Is it hubris...
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2011, 07:33:39 PM »
Yeah, and the USGS and equivalent Japanese authority recently upgraded the quake to a 9.0. That's like a once in 500-1000 year event, anywhere.

The whole Island of Honshu or at least it's northern half was dragged eight feet over.
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