Author Topic: My town and building permits  (Read 9590 times)

Hawkmoon

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #25 on: April 16, 2011, 01:25:43 AM »
I thought the whole point of suspended ceiling grids was to enable the use of non plenum or in-wall cable, allow easy distribution of services and wiring, without structural or code-required complexities.

The point of suspended ceilings is to have inexpensive ceilings that allow for access to whatever is in the ceiling cavity without having to perform destructive demolition to get access. It has nothing to do with allowing the use of non-plenum-rated cable. In fact, non-plenum-rated cable IS the problem ... because if nobody's looking, it often gets used in a ceiling that IS a plenum, and then you have the potential for a fire to spread toxic smoke and particulates through the entire building by way of the ventilation system.
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280plus

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #26 on: April 16, 2011, 06:18:06 AM »
So, in theory, it's tough to take an old existing suspended ceiling and turn it into a plenum. Was not aware of that. Interesting AND good to know;)
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birdman

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #27 on: April 16, 2011, 10:18:36 AM »
But that still doesn't answer my question.
What is the difference between "above" and "within" ceiling grid systems.  If the two statements are equivalent, why does that code posted treat them differently.  If they aren't, what is the difference?

280plus

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #28 on: April 16, 2011, 11:22:39 AM »
SWAG - How about like when you mount a hardwired smoke detector or PA speaker in a tile like they do. Is that "within" the grid?
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #29 on: April 16, 2011, 11:32:26 AM »
i gotta admit there is a need for inspections.  i did an install at the tgif in fairfax.  i popped up a ceiling tile so i could cast a low voltage line to far side of bar.  i discovered that the drywall ceiling was screwed and glued to an earlier drop ceiling.  awful lotta weight hanging from those support wires
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280plus

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #30 on: April 16, 2011, 12:19:58 PM »
I had one once where they had wired steel 2 x 4s to the ceiling horizontally to create a tray effect below and above that was where I had to go to change the A/C filter. Virtually impossible to get to unless you're brave enough to walk on the sprinkler pipes instead. That was a while ago. Not sure if I'm still young, dumb and light enough to do that anymore.  :P

 :lol:
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Fitz

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #31 on: April 16, 2011, 02:23:08 PM »
But that still doesn't answer my question.
What is the difference between "above" and "within" ceiling grid systems.  If the two statements are equivalent, why does that code posted treat them differently.  If they aren't, what is the difference?

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Hawkmoon

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #32 on: April 16, 2011, 05:56:13 PM »
But that still doesn't answer my question.
What is the difference between "above" and "within" ceiling grid systems.  If the two statements are equivalent, why does that code posted treat them differently.  If they aren't, what is the difference?

Good question. I don't think the section quoted really comes from the National Electrical Code. I just grabbed my copy of the 2005 edition, which is what's in effect here. Article 90 is the first chapter, entitled "Introduction." It's about administration, not technical matters. And there is no section 90-13 -- it ends with section 90-9.

The NEC would never use terms like "City." It's written for use by states, cities, towns, counties, and all levels of jurisdiction. It uses the term "authority having jurisdiction." This makes me think that the section quoted was written as a local amendment to the NEC, and it's not surprising that a local amendment wouldn't makes sense because they are all too often written by people who have only a passing familiarity with the actual work, and zero ability to write cogent English sentences.

A ceiling grid IS just the grid -- not the tiles, and certainly not the roof. I don't know of any way wiring can be run "in" a grid system.

To save you looking back, here's the section quoted that purports to be from the NEC (but probably isn't):
Quote
NEC Article 90-13 Commercial Low Voltage
1. The Commercial Low Voltage Permit will apply to commercial, industrial, and muti-family complexes with three or more units.
2. Commercial low voltage installations that are associated with a project that has a building permit will not require a commercial low voltage permit.
3. Installation of new cable in an existing pathway will not require a permit as long as the existing pathways are in compliance with the codes.
4. Cable installations that do not penetrate fire walls, floors, or ceilings. or installed above ceiling grid systems will not require a permit. Installations within ceiling grid systems will require a Low Voltage Permit.
5. The City Building Department will provide a limited checklist with code references to assist inspectors and installers.
6. The first six months after the adoption of the ordinance, there will be a flat fee of $64 per commercial low voltage permit.
7. Commercial low voltage permit fees are based on the project cost which is the total cost of all labor and materials to complete the low voltage project. Electrical materials furnished by the owner must be included in the total low voltage project costs. Devices are not to be included in the total cost in determining the low voltage fee.
8. The commercial low voltage permit, once issued, shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the work has commenced. The building official is authorized to grant in writing, one or more extensions of time, for a period not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.
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41magsnub

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #33 on: April 16, 2011, 07:17:17 PM »
What I posted was the actual city ordnance. 

280plus

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #34 on: April 17, 2011, 10:42:28 AM »
FYI, the local authoriy has final say over the interpretation of NEC etc...

If they get a little too crazy your next step is to bring it to the attention of the town council.
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Hawkmoon

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #35 on: April 18, 2011, 12:09:47 AM »
What I posted was the actual city ordnance. 

That's what I surmised. But your post said it was the National Electrical Code:

Quote from: 41magsnub
NEC Article 90-13 Commercial Low Voltage

"NEC" is National Electrical Code
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41magsnub

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #36 on: April 18, 2011, 10:49:41 AM »
Damnit..  I keep mis-spelling ordinance and the spell checker goes and makes it into ordnance!   [ar15]

Better than the one I did on THR a few years ago spell check got me on where I climbed a mile up the bottom of a big coolie instead of a coulee...

41magsnub

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2011, 10:50:35 AM »
That's what I surmised. But your post said it was the National Electrical Code:

"NEC" is National Electrical Code

That is the exact verbiage from the ordinance (I got it right this time!).  NEC deal and all. 

280plus

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2011, 11:20:58 AM »
That's ok, I know a guy who relied on spellcheck for his whole book. Interesting read.  ;)
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Hawkmoon

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2011, 12:10:04 PM »
That is the exact verbiage from the ordinance (I got it right this time!).  NEC deal and all. 

Yep. Just proves my point:

Quote
This makes me think that the section quoted was written as a local amendment to the NEC, and it's not surprising that a local amendment wouldn't makes sense because they are all too often written by people who have only a passing familiarity with the actual work, and zero ability to write cogent English sentences.

It is NOT the NEC if it was not written and published by the National Fire Protection Association. It's a local ordinance, and it makes about as much sense as most local attempts to write a building code requirement ==> none.
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KD5NRH

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #40 on: April 18, 2011, 11:24:41 PM »
I thought the whole point of suspended ceiling grids was to enable the use of non plenum or in-wall cable, allow easy distribution of services and wiring, without structural or code-required complexities.

No, they're also often used as a butt-ugly "modern" way to cover up beautiful handmade hardwood and plasterwork ceilings.

280plus

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Re: My town and building permits
« Reply #41 on: April 19, 2011, 08:10:48 AM »
Tin ceilings too...  :'(
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