Author Topic: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?  (Read 2972 times)

Chuck Dye

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,560
Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« on: February 26, 2012, 08:26:51 PM »
Rummaging around in the gun safe, I rediscovered Dad's war prize Kai-Gunto.  Dad spoke little about it other than to warn of dire consequences if we kids were caught playing with it.  I have always had the impression it is one of thousands distributed, nearly at random, to U.S. personnel after the surrender.  This one has been uncared for decades and I figure it is time.  Past time, really.

My inclination is to turn the sword over to a competent and trustworthy expert.  Does anyone have any recommendations?
« Last Edit: February 26, 2012, 08:33:33 PM by Chuck Dye »
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Harold Tuttle

  • Professor Chromedome
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 8,069
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2012, 08:34:15 PM »
"The true mad scientist does not make public appearances! He does not wear the "Hello, my name is.." badge!
He strikes from below like a viper or on high like a penny dropped from the tallest building around!
He only has one purpose--Do bad things to good people! Mit science! What good is science if no one gets hurt?!"

Terpsichore

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2012, 09:08:43 PM »
Does the whole sword need to be cleaned/repaired?  Or is it more specific pieces like the tsuba or the koshirae?
There is something relaxing in working with sharp pointy things.

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2012, 10:40:14 PM »
Does the whole sword need to be cleaned/repaired?  Or is it more specific pieces like the tsuba or the koshirae?

Is that the pointy end or the grab-onto end?.....
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

Chuck Dye

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,560
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2012, 11:11:32 PM »
A full cleaning is in order and the mekugi needs replacing.  I don't want to tackle the broken mekugi without some expert evaluation first.  As I understand it, the vast majority of such swords have little collector value but there have been some treasures that made it to general distribution.  I am sure this one is of much greater value to the family as being from Dad than it is as just a sword.  I am after identification and preservation more than anything else.
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Terpsichore

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 11:49:48 PM »
Is that the pointy end or the grab-onto end?.....

The tsuba is the hand guard, the koshirae are the actual mountings. 
I'm sad to say I have to repair my tsuba, it has come loose with use.

Chuck, has the mekugi actually come out, or is it still in and just loose?  As far as the identification, I'm not sure if this will help, but is the swordmaker's mei still visible?  You may be able to track it down that way with a little digging.  Or, find someone who is very familiar with swords from that period who may know the main makers that could give you some clues as to the sword's origins.

There is something relaxing in working with sharp pointy things.

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

Chuck Dye

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,560
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2012, 12:22:54 AM »
The mekugi is broken at the ana, the bit retained is enough to keep the tsuka attatched and I have not yet driven it out, though I probably should, as I do not have a replacement mekugi.  The tsuka, seppa and tsuba are loose, allowing the habaki to slide about ¼".  Prior to it reaching me, the sword hung on the wall for decades untouched except furtively by curious kids.  There is some surface rust, though very little considering the sword has spent almost all of the last 66 years within a mile or two of the ocean.  I think what needs to be done is to disassemble it, get rubbings and photos of the tang markings, clean the rust, coat the blade with something suitable such as Renaissance Wax or Curator's Choice, and reassemble.  Depending on the experts' evaluation, the saya and its furniture may or may not need cleaning and dressing.

Once the repair and preservation details are taken care of, there remains the question of where the sword goes when it leaves my hands.  There is no obvious path within the family.  A friend likes the idea of repatriating it if it is possible to identify the family of the Japanese officer from whom it was confiscated.  While that may offend a veteran of WWII, I think it less offensive than having it sold by a disinterested grandchild or grandnephew.
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Terpsichore

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2012, 12:52:10 AM »
I think you may be right.  Get it to someone who can safely take it apart, clean it up, appraise it, and put it back together.

"Once the repair and preservation details are taken care of, there remains the question of where the sword goes when it leaves my hands.  There is no obvious path within the family.  A friend likes the idea of repatriating it if it is possible to identify the family of the Japanese officer from whom it was confiscated.  While that may offend a veteran of WWII, I think it less offensive than having it sold by a disinterested grandchild or grandnephew."

Do you mean try to find the original Japanese family the officer who had the sword belonged to? 
There is something relaxing in working with sharp pointy things.

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

Chuck Dye

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,560
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2012, 01:22:20 AM »
Do you mean try to find the original Japanese family the officer who had the sword belonged to? 

Yes.  I doubt tracing ownership would be easy, or even possible, unless the blade is rare or a serial numbered factory product.  I am not even sure its return would be welcome for other than the monetary value, but it might be interesting to try.
Gee, I'd love to see your data!

Terpsichore

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2012, 08:24:12 AM »
A very noble effort anyway.  Good luck!  :)
There is something relaxing in working with sharp pointy things.

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

brimic

  • friends
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 14,270
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2012, 09:08:58 AM »
Quote
The tsuka, seppa and tsuba are loose, allowing the habaki to slide about ¼". 

That's what she said.
"now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb" -Dark Helmet

"AK47's belong in the hands of soldiers mexican drug cartels"-
Barack Obama

seeker_two

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 12,922
  • In short, most intelligence is false.
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2012, 10:24:07 AM »
I'm sad to say I have to repair my tsuba, it has come loose with use.

The mekugi is broken at the ana

I never thought that sword restoration could be so......stimulating....


=D
Impressed yet befogged, they grasped at his vivid leading phrases, seeing only their surface meaning, and missing the deeper current of his thought.

tokugawa

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,851
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2012, 12:44:15 PM »
Some random comments, many years ago I dove into the study of Japanese swords for similar reasons to yours. forgotten nine tenths, so forgive the terminology.  
 
 Have you removed the tsuka? (handle) Push out the mekugi (peg) with a blunt ended chopstick or tool, and slide it off. A piece of bamboo chop stick will make a fine temporary (or permanent) replacement .

 Take some close up pictures - focus on the tang ,the area under the habaki, because it is usually the cleanest, a section of blade where the temper line is clearest, and the tip. Post them up if you feel comfortable doing so.

 The most important thing with any WWII sword is whether or not it is a handmade piece. You are looking for a makers signature , water tempering , and laminations.  The sword will be either mass produced, hand made by an individual using traditional methods, or ancestral.
 Some of the gendaito (WWII era handmade) are magnificent swords. They have the advantage of not being worn from several hundred years of use and polishing. In the last 15 years or so they have become increasingly respected.
 


It is very doubtful you could find the original family, unless there was documentation. Most of the swords were surrendered in Japan, dumped in a large pile, and the GI's were allowed to pick up what they wanted.  If you have surrender documents , or if the sword has a family crest, or if it is the one in ten thousand with a "history" recognizable to a Japanese expert, maybe.
  
 The most common  error people make with Japanese swords is to "clean" the rust by grinding ,sanding,or filing. this puts divots in the blade which require a lot of material removal to even up. A light coat of clove oil (traditional) or clear mineral oil , to prevent further rust, would be advised. The rust on the tang is an important evidence of age and esthetic  and should NEVER be cleaned or oiled at all.[/b
 
 
 The best reference site on the web seems to be unavailable, Richard Steins "Japanese Sword Index" -but there are a lot of others. Searching that phrase brought up a lot of pages with links to sites- and seemed to get rid of the "ultimate dragon fighting ninja sword" type sites that come up with some other searches.. =D

 You might try Fred Lohman, he seemed to focus a bit more on WWII era restoration at reasonable cost.  http://www.japanese-swords.com/

 "Military Swords of Japan", Fuller and Gregory is a good book.

It would be wise to do a lot of reading on the web, before taking action.

 

HankB

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 16,703
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 01:15:18 PM »
If you go here:   

http://nihontomessageboard.com/

You'll find that on the main page (top right of the page) are a number of experts listed under "Restoration" - you might consider contacting one or more of them. 

The nihonto message board also has a forum where you can post pictures and ask questions - I did so several years ago for a tanto, wakizashi, and katana my Dad brought back from WWII, and got some good info; you can search for the messages if you want, they're probably still there.

BTW, Dad didn't pick these up from a general pile of swords - my understanding was that he got them from Japs who didn't need them any more; the tanto from an officer (a general?) who had it under his tunic; it was found while searching his body for maps, papers, or any other military intelligence he might have had on his person.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you find out.
Trump won in 2016. Democrats haven't been so offended since Republicans came along and freed their slaves.
Sometimes I wonder if the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it. - Mark Twain
Government is a broker in pillage, and every election is a sort of advance auction in stolen goods. - H.L. Mencken
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it. - Mark Twain

Terpsichore

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 10:44:46 PM »
 "You might try Fred Lohman, he seemed to focus a bit more on WWII era restoration at reasonable cost.  http://www.japanese-swords.com/"

A fellow student has mentioned this site before and said it was what he goes through.  He was impressed with their work.  Wish I could remember what he went through them for, only see him at training camp once a year.
There is something relaxing in working with sharp pointy things.

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,499
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #15 on: February 29, 2012, 10:38:50 AM »
I'm sad to say I have to repair my tsuba, it has come loose with use.

You're ... immortal?
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife

tokugawa

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,851
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #16 on: February 29, 2012, 01:49:45 PM »
"There can be only 17  7/32nds"

Terpsichore

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 373
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #17 on: February 29, 2012, 07:12:30 PM »
You're ... immortal?

Nope.  Just a lady that enjoys training with swords and other various pointy weapons.
There is something relaxing in working with sharp pointy things.

What if there were no hypothetical situations?

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 61,499
  • My prepositions are on/in
Re: Japanese sword services: any recommendations?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2012, 08:37:44 AM »
Nope.  Just a lady that enjoys training with swords and other various pointy weapons.


Good, cause I'm not a Watcher. Whatever that is.  [tinfoil]
"Doggies are angel babies!" -- my wife