Clinton Hopes Martin Case Leads to Reappraisal of 'SYG' Laws

[Perd Hapley]

A prosecutor doesn't indict, cuffs don't mean arrest.  Either way the Chief of Police would know what both those things mean.

But you agree that you were wrong about him being left at the scene, right? Have you seen the video of him arriving at the station in handcuffs, in the back of a police car?

[MechAg94]

This is why I am glad I didn't dig into the details of this early on.  I imagine all the false information would have colored my thinking a lot.

[TommyGunn]

To be fair, the sanford PD first brought stand your ground into this - they claimed that because of SYG, they couldn't arrest Zimmerman on suspicion of a crime and continue their investigation as they would have in any other suspected homicide.  I think their reasoning was bad, but they were indeed the first to bring it up.

If SYG means that anyone who says "self defense!" must be left at the scene with his gun unless there's a video of the murder, I want it changed too.

I don't believe many people are accusing the Sanford PD of acting properly in the Zimmerman affair.
There's nothing in the SYG law that indicates a person who has just shot someone ought to be "left at the scene with his gun."  Nothing precludes the police from conducting a proper investigation.
The author of the SYG law has stated he does not believe this law applies to Zimmerman, who was actually NOT "standing" his ground.  He was pursuing Martin.
An old latin saying, "abusus non tollit usum" stands to mean "bad use does not negate good use."   When used properly (interpreted correctly) the SYG law is a good law.
It would be nice if we could guarantee that everyone with a firearm & carry permit had good judgement but, unfortunatly, it just isn't possible. 

[makattak]

I don't believe many people are accusing the Sanford PD of acting properly in the Zimmerman affair.
There's nothing in the SYG law that indicates a person who has just shot someone ought to be "left at the scene with his gun."  Nothing precludes the police from conducting a proper investigation.
The author of the SYG law has stated he does not believe this law applies to Zimmerman, who was actually NOT "standing" his ground.  He was pursuing Martin.
An old latin saying, "abusus non tollit usum" stands to mean "bad use does not negate good use."   When used properly (interpreted correctly) the SYG law is a good law.
It would be nice if we could guarantee that everyone with a firearm & carry permit had good judgement but, unfortunatly, it just isn't possible.  

You know, I'm sick of this.

I'm done throwing Zimmerman under the bus.

If his version of events is correct, I find no fault in what he did. (He claims he did not "pursue" Mr. Martin, and most definitely not "run him down" as De Selby, with very subjective evidence, claims.)

Should he have gotten out of his car? In hindsight, probably not, but I will not fault a man for trying to protect his community, though. (Again, according to his version of events.)

Alright, I have to admit, I do find one fault in what Mr. Zimmerman did. He had very poor situational awareness such that Mr. Martin was able to approach and assault him. (Again according to his version of events.)

I'm not going to call him "an idiot with a gun" or "wanna-be cop on the neighborhood watch." He may have screwed up or may even be guilty of anything from manslaughter to murder.

However, as I do not have evidence in my possession that convicts him of this, I'm unwilling to condemn him. And if he's innocent and was simply defending his life from a unprovoked assault, I'm not going to toss him under the boss because I think it will make me look better by calling him an idiot. (And, yes, I jumped on this bandwagon at first and I'm ashamed I did so. Edit: Apprently I kept the opinion that he was an idiot to myself. Well, I'm still ashamed for thinking it, but proud of my own restraint in writing it.)

[TommyGunn]

With all due respect, Makattak, one thing seems fairly consistant; the 911 operator (who I know has no legal weight) advising Zimmerman "we don't need you to do that," (meaning following Martin). 
Zimmerman showed bad jedgement in disobeying this advice ----IMHO.
I'm not saying it was a criminal offense, but it is where things began to go wrong for Zimmerman.
I understand the frustration but this is likely to get worse before it gets better.
And we may never really know exactly what happened in any case.

[makattak]

With all due respect, Makattak, one thing seems fairly consistant; the 911 operator (who I know has no legal weight) advising Zimmerman "we don't need you to do that," (meaning following Martin). 
Zimmerman showed bad jedgement in disobeying this advice ----IMHO.
I'm not saying it was a criminal offense, but it is where things began to go wrong for Zimmerman.
I understand the frustration but this is likely to get worse before it gets better.
And we may never really know exactly what happened in any case.

That is not clear from the phone call, and you are buying into interpretations.

The operator asked "Are you following him?", (so no PRE-warnings about that), and, upon recieving an affirmative, the operator said "We don't need you to do that". He responded with "Ok."

Now, that could be "Ok, but I'll do it anyway" or "Ok, I'm stopping." His version of the story is that he had lost sight of Mr. Martin anyway and stopped. The "HE IGNORED THE 911 OPERATOR" is just another example of the persistence of the media driven narrative, it is not a certainty.

[roo_ster]

Zimmerman was arrested, taken away in cuffs, and his gun confiscated. He simply wasn't indicted.

In what world is that "being left at the scene with his gun"?

Lies But Accurate Land?

[TommyGunn]

That is not clear from the phone call, and you are buying into interpretations.

The operator asked "Are you following him?", (so no PRE-warnings about that), and, upon recieving an affirmative, the operator said "We don't need you to do that". He responded with "Ok."

Now, that could be "Ok, but I'll do it anyway" or "Ok, I'm stopping." His version of the story is that he had lost sight of Mr. Martin anyway and stopped. The "HE IGNORED THE 911 OPERATOR" is just another example of the persistence of the media driven narrative, it is not a certainty.

OK, then, but then everything must be an interpretation.  I have never heard an iteration of this story which did not include Zimmerman being told by the 911 operator they didn't need him to follow Martin.
I suggest that means the odds are that means it stands a greater than even chance of being correct.
The greatest discrepancies /disagreements in the story appear to me to be who was screaming for help, and just exactly what happened when Martin & Zimmerman made actual contact.


But I suppose space aliens could also be involved, so I will shut up and wait to see what George Noory says about this.....

[De Selby]

But you agree that you were wrong about him being left at the scene, right? Have you seen the video of him arriving at the station in handcuffs, in the back of a police car?

Yeah, I think you confused the hyperbole in that first post about SYG with a statement about this case.

Regolith, I read complaints from inmates every month explaining to me how the courts and lawyers got the law completely wrong and about how they're entitled to be free.  The vast majority of them were charged by information, and some of them were even put in handcuffs at the scene of the crime before they were arrested.

Excuse making for SYG and George Zimmerman are ruinious to gun rights, but I suppose that too will be blamed on race and politics.   We're all going to be writing letters, just like the inmates, explaining how everyone else got it wrong once this is over.

[Jamie B]

Excuse making for SYG and George Zimmerman are ruinious to gun rights, but I suppose that too will be blamed on race and politics.   We're all going to be writing letters, just like the inmates, explaining how everyone else got it wrong once this is over.

Again, your slanted perspective means nothing here.
What is a danger to gun rights are nasty and unjustified comments being made by clowns like you who are completely uneducated about the situation in question.

Your arrogance in refusing to recognize the truth, and pushing your own hoplophobic agenda, all the while hiding under a cloak of 'expert' embarrasses truly learned legal minds.

The board hoplotroll urinates on yet another thread.......

[makattak]

OK, then, but then everything must be an interpretation.  I have never heard an iteration of this story which did not include Zimmerman being told by the 911 operator they didn't need him to follow Martin.
I suggest that means the odds are that means it stands a greater than even chance of being correct.
The greatest discrepancies /disagreements in the story appear to me to be who was screaming for help, and just exactly what happened when Martin & Zimmerman made actual contact.


But I suppose space aliens could also be involved, so I will shut up and wait to see what George Noory says about this.....

If you would read my post, you would see a scenario that includes both the operator's comment that he doesn't need to follow him AND possibility that he then broke off pursuit.

But of course, that's just Zimmerman's account so it should be automatically discounted as he has an interest in distortion. We should accept, instead, the lawyer for Martin's family's aaccount. We can trust him. (At least, that seems to be the media's position...)

[makattak]

Difficult for those calling Zimmerman a murderous racist, if true:

 http://dailycaller.com/2012/04/02/zimmerman-family-member-calls-naacp-racists-says-there-will-be-blood-on-your-hands-if-george-is-hurt/

[Perd Hapley]

Yeah, I think you confused the hyperbole in that first post about SYG with a statement about this case.

You mean I confused your attempt to spread misinformation for an honest mistake?

[mtnbkr]

Wow, this is getting to be as contentious a topic as abortion and corn bread.

Chris