Author Topic: Healthcare costs in the USA  (Read 1966 times)

MillCreek

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Healthcare costs in the USA
« on: June 01, 2013, 05:00:43 PM »
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/02/health/colonoscopies-explain-why-us-leads-the-world-in-health-expenditures.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&src=igw&_r=0

A very interesting article showing how much more the USA pays for healthcare services than other First-World countries, without correspondingly better outcomes.
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TommyGunn

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2013, 06:25:20 PM »
After Obamacare gets fully implemented this disparity will widen drmatically.
Especially after the death panels are started. [tinfoil]
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birdman

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2013, 06:55:28 PM »
Actually once you control the stats for selection bias and reporting issues, for equivalent people, we have BETTER medical outcomes.

Northwoods

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2013, 07:13:08 PM »
And they only pay less over there because of price controls.  Which limits availability.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2013, 07:19:33 PM »
take a look at salaries as well. nurses etc as well as md's

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MillCreek

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2013, 07:59:17 PM »
Actually once you control the stats for selection bias and reporting issues, for equivalent people, we have BETTER medical outcomes.

There is quite a large body of medical literature showing that in many measures of mortality and quality of life, the USA ranks much worse than many other countries, despite spending much more on health care. A quick PUBMED search will reveal the cites.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2013, 08:01:00 PM »
And they only pay less over there because of price controls.  Which limits availability.

Lack of insurance, high deductibles and uncovered costs in the USA limits availability.  I see it every day in my clinics.
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MillCreek
Snohomish County, WA  USA


Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

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Re: Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2013, 08:01:57 PM »
take a look at salaries as well. nurses etc as well as md's

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One of the primary reasons why healthcare professionals from many countries want to immigrate to the USA.
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2013, 08:42:13 PM »
One of the primary reasons why healthcare professionals from many countries want to immigrate to the USA.

i once checked nurse salaries and they were more than 30% less across the board in europe
It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Northwoods

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2013, 08:51:06 PM »
Lack of insurance, high deductibles and uncovered costs in the USA limits availability.  I see it every day in my clinics.

SWMBO's best friend has a niece that was very premmie.  Like fit in the palm of your hand premmie.  Her BIL, the dad, had no insurance at all.  Last I heard that baby got ovwr $3,000,000 in health care.  Given that guy's income I'd bet he never pays more than 0.1% of that
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birdman

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2013, 08:54:28 PM »
There is quite a large body of medical literature showing that in many measures of mortality and quality of life, the USA ranks much worse than many other countries, despite spending much more on health care. A quick PUBMED search will reveal the cites.

And quite a large body that refutes, that isn't funded by organizations attempting to increase medical spending and increased third party payer strategies.

Notice I put several qualifications in my post, that the studies you suggest don't address.  The stats most often quoted are mortality (life expectancy) and "quality of life".  

Both of those are influenced LESS by medical capability and availability and MORE by personal behavior.

If you control for equivalent people, AND address the lower and/or different reporting aspects of other countries, and compare MEDICALLY relevant stats (eg life expectancy AFTER diagnosis, or medical success rate, or fraction of diagnosis, etc) the US is far superior.

For instance, we have higher incidence of cancer than many less developed countries....know why?  Because in many countries, if someone dies, its only a death due to cancer if the cancer was diagnosed.  In the US cancer is diagnosed before death nearly 100% of the time.  Because we then TRY to save people,that effects both the survival rates, and the incidence rates.

In other words, if you don't like the treatment here....why not seek medical treatment somewhere else.

As for availability, the reason costs have risen is because there is no real market force to do otherwise.

De Selby

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2013, 08:54:50 PM »
The symbolism of being rorted by colonoscopy....

Higher prices, similar wait times, and comparable or worse outcomes is the result of pretty much every comprehensive survey of the situation ever done.  

I'm sure someone will be along to tell us how some oddball type of cancer or premature baby illness has far better results in America, and then to accuse us of hating newborns for not recognising those outliers as proof of having the best health care in the world.

"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

BobR

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2013, 09:00:22 PM »
Quote
take a look at salaries as well. nurses etc as well as md's

Don't be hatin' on the nurses!  =|

They will be the ones who keep you alive when the doc is a total screwup, just maybe. Of course, as with any profession, there may be a few who will speed up your demise!  =|

According to this chart, which I would take with a grain of salt as far as salaries go ( I am not sure how they came up with the salaries), most European nurses make more than US nurses.

http://www.paywizard.org/main/salary/global-wage-comparison

 ;)   =)

bob




MillCreek

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2013, 10:05:20 PM »

If you control for equivalent people, AND address the lower and/or different reporting aspects of other countries, and compare MEDICALLY relevant stats (eg life expectancy AFTER diagnosis, or medical success rate, or fraction of diagnosis, etc) the US is far superior.

You are absolutely correct that the USA, in very specific areas of care and very specific facilities, has the best healthcare and outcomes in the world.  If you can pay for it.  If I had the insurance or other resources, there is no place I would rather have cardiac care, oncology care, organ transplants or other high-tech medical care.

Where the US medical system is a miserable failure is ensuring a basic level of healthcare for all citizens regardless of ability to pay.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 10:21:44 PM by MillCreek »
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MillCreek
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

MillCreek

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Re: Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2013, 10:17:21 PM »
i once checked nurse salaries and they were more than 30% less across the board in europe

I am old enough, in terms of my healthcare career, that I remember when we were importing Fillipino nurses by the planeload.  A few years back, the East Coast was importing them from Ireland.  Then the recession hit, hospitals were closing units left and right, and the nursing shortage just evaporated, and I don't think there is much happening in terms of importing nurses any more.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
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zahc

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2013, 10:30:58 PM »
It's not hard to figure out why costs are high...it's bleedingly obvious. Protectionism=higher prices, practically by definition. It's simple supply-and-demand. Prices are high because barriers to entry are high, and barriers to entry are largely created by government regulation.

The level of competence and service of medical practitioners frankly disgusts me. The reason these jokers still have have an office open is that they have no competition.

If there was a free market in healthcare, I would do most of my diagnosis online, buy my drugs from Amazon from the lowest bidder.
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MillCreek

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2013, 10:33:46 PM »
^^^ Substitute the words 'law' and 'lawyer' for the healthcare concepts, and you would be spot on for much of the legal profession as well.  And I say that as a former member of the profession.

Except I am of the opinion, having worked both sides of the street, that I see a generally higher level of competence in healthcare than I do in law. But this perspective comes from actually working on both sides, not just being a consumer of their services.
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Quote from: Angel Eyes on August 09, 2018, 01:56:15 AM
You are one lousy risk manager.

Nick1911

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #17 on: June 01, 2013, 10:58:15 PM »
I always wonder when and why the general perception of what "health insurance" is suppose to be changed.

Insurance, any insurance, is a contract where one party is selling risk they are not willing to bare to another party in exchange for a regularly paid premium.  And vastly, this seems to be the perception for homeowners, automotive, long term disability, etc.  But, this isn't the perception of health insurance.  It seems like most of my coworkers view it as a service.  "I pay $x a month, and then I shouldn't ever have to pay medical bills."  This leads to an interesting expectation - that one should continually receive more in benefit payout then they pay in via premiums, which can't actually work.

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2013, 11:27:09 PM »
I suspect many of these studies suffer from the same methodological errors prevalent when they compare the efficacy of public education establishments of, say, Wisconsin versus Texas.
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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Re: Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2013, 07:45:06 AM »
Don't be hatin' on the nurses!  =|

They will be the ones who keep you alive when the doc is a total screwup, just maybe. Of course, as with any profession, there may be a few who will speed up your demise!  =|

According to this chart, which I would take with a grain of salt as far as salaries go ( I am not sure how they came up with the salaries), most European nurses make more than US nurses.

http://www.paywizard.org/main/salary/global-wage-comparison

 ;)   =)

bob


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nurses teachers and folk under rank of col are the only folk i give a work discount to.

if you ever wanna piss of an obgyn ask the nurse for her opinion on his recommendation for an emergency c section. he was hot about it. she was amused

good thing for him she agreed

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


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Fly320s

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2013, 07:47:19 AM »
Regardless of the quality or price of the US healthcare system, why should the government have the authority to control the consumer cost?
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birdman

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2013, 09:17:15 AM »
Regardless of the quality or price of the US healthcare system, why should the government have the authority to control the consumer cost?

For the children?  =|

Tallpine

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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #22 on: June 02, 2013, 11:42:41 AM »
Maybe we should compare the "efficiency" of the healthcare system the way we compare the education system: in spite of increasing expenditures, the test levels are generally not improving.

Maybe it's not so much the quantity of the expenditures but the quality/direction of the expenditures ???

For instance, starting an individual on a prescription drug to treat some supposed problem almost always leads to more and more drugs to treat the side effects of the previous prescriptions.  A lot of expense and the individual gets worse and worse and worse.

I have known of several people who were on many many prescriptions and finally got so bad that the doctors decided they were near death and stopped all medication to wait for the natural outcome.  Amazingly the patient immediately began to recover  :facepalm:
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Re: Healthcare costs in the USA
« Reply #23 on: June 02, 2013, 08:59:01 PM »
Quote
The more than $35,000 annually that Ms. Yapalater and her employer collectively pay in premiums — her share is $15,000

Must be nice.

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