Aluminium house wiring

[zxcvbob]

I just read thru the whole 1993 code book and I can't find *anything* about abandoned cable.  Pretty sure if it's not connected to anything and *cant* be energized (because you cut it short and taped up the ends) it really doesn't matter -- it's not wiring, it's just stuff in the walls.

Of course after 20 years there might be new requirements, but if someone tells you there are make them cite the paragraph number so you can look it up.

[Gewehr98]

I'll be damned.

Zahc is British!

(Aluminium)

[zahc]

Gewehr98 wins. The whole point of the thread was just to see how long until someone corrected my spelling aluminium correctly.

[never_retreat]

This may be what some people consider good practice (I think it's a bit over the top), but it isn't required by code. The NEC requires two appliance circuits.

There is no requirement whatsoever for a floor level receptacle. I can't imagine why anyone would even want one -- kitchen floors get wet mopped -- why would I want a receptacle where I'm going to be throwing water around?

Yes true but it is taken to this extreme around here. I Figured they were all being dicks about it.

[Hawkmoon]

Yes true but it is taken to this extreme around here. I Figured they were all being dicks about it.

That wouldn't go far around here. Somebody would call the state and the inspector would be in serious danger of having his license revoked. As our former State Building Inspector was fond of reminding us at mandatory in-service training, "The code is the least you can accept and the most you can require."

We also get a refresher once a year from one of the head prosecutors in the State Attorney's office. We are reminded that violations of the building or fire code can result in monetary fines and/or imprisonment. Therefore, ALL violations must be treated and documented just like "real" criminal offenses. That means if the inspector can't cite an actual section of the code that requires what he's asking for, he'd better not even consider writing up a violation, because if the owner contests it Mr. Inspector is going to get his posterior handed to him in court.

[zxcvbob]

I had no problems when I replaced my service entrance 20 years ago -- well, one small problem (I had to bond to the copper water pipe all the way back at the meter on the other side of a finished basement instead of where the pipe passed right by the service panel.)  When I was done the inspector said I'd done a good job.

A couple of years later I added electricity to my garage and I pulled a permit for that too.  Much simpler project, except I got a different inspector who hated everything I did -- I assume because I'm not in the union.  The one that pissed me off was when he said I couldn't use metal staples to fasten the Romex to the studs (and I had doubled staples everywhere)  I asked him where it said that in the code book, and I offered him my copy to to look it up.  He said metal staples weren't UL approved.  I showed him the box with the UL label, and on the back where it said what sizes of cable they could be used with.  He said you still can't use them -- one of those "because I said so" things, I guess.    

I would have appealed to a supervisor or state inspector, but it was easier to pull all those dang staples and replace them with the bare minimum number of plastic staples.  They can always get you for "unworkmanlike", and that one's totally a judgement call of the inspector.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

Friend named Jack had a problem inspector _in Fairfax. Threw him through s second floor window. There were repercussions but inspection got more reasonable.

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[Hawkmoon]

I just read thru the whole 1993 code book and I can't find *anything* about abandoned cable.  Pretty sure if it's not connected to anything and *cant* be energized (because you cut it short and taped up the ends) it really doesn't matter -- it's not wiring, it's just stuff in the walls.

Of course after 20 years there might be new requirements, but if someone tells you there are make them cite the paragraph number so you can look it up.

I looked it up in the current NEC handbook we have at work. I found the requirement for removal, and it does apply specifically to communications and data cabling. That can remain if tagged for future use, otherwise it has to come out unless it's run in a [fire] protected space.

I couldn't find anything at all about abandoning power wiring, so I went directly to the highest source I have access to -- the chief electrical inspector of my state. He said I couldn't find it because it's not there. No requirement to remove old power wiring.

BUT ...

ALL power wiring, hot or not, MUST terminate in a box. You can't just snip off the ends and leave the parts you can't reach in the wall. And thus endeth the sermon for this week. Take it for what it's worth.

[Scout26]

Friend named Jack had a problem inspector _in Fairfax. Threw him through s second floor window. There were repercussions but inspection got more reasonable.

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Defenestrating.  What most bureaucrats are in desperate need of.

[zahc]

Local guy quoted me $1800 for a new service panel install (relocated to outside per newer code requirement prohibiting breaker panels in closets), $9/outlet for copper pigtailing parts+labor, and 10k to rewire with copper if all the sheetrock was already torn out (1800 sq ft single story with slab "foundation"). I told the seller to do the aforementioned upgrades or to knock 2500 off the price of the house. Haven't heard back yet.

[Tallpine]

Local guy quoted me $1800 for a new service panel install (relocated to outside per newer code requirement prohibiting breaker panels in closets), $9/outlet for copper pigtailing parts+labor, and 10k to rewire with copper if all the sheetrock was already torn out (1800 sq ft single story with slab "foundation"). I told the seller to do the aforementioned upgrades or to knock 2500 off the price of the house. Haven't heard back yet.

You don't own this house yet 

Run! 

[zahc]

Gotta downgrade; my family is growing faster than my salary. My current place is too big, not enough rooms, too much yard maintenance, and I need to refi anyway since the bill is too large on a single income.

Everything in this town is 35 years old or more, so if it's not the wiring, its the sagging roof or sunken foundation. This one seems to have a good roof, no exterior rot, and the foundation guy said the who slab is within 1/8", which is better than new.

[Levant]

if i do any wiring related work in those homes i will have the occupants sign a statement that they have been informed that their house is a death trap.

You don't do a lot of work in aluminum-wired homes, do you?  THough I would never use aluminum beyond my service entrance, if I did have aluminum and some contractor wanted me to sign such a statement I would definitely throw them out of the house and report them to state licensing agencies.

[geronimotwo]

You don't do a lot of work in aluminum-wired homes, do you?  THough I would never use aluminum beyond my service entrance, if I did have aluminum and some contractor wanted me to sign such a statement I would definitely throw them out of the house and report them to state licensing agencies.

you are correct, almost all of the al wired homes in my area are mobile homes from the 70's.  i think it is only fair to warn the residents, and cover my a$$.  you are by no means required to follow my example, or hire me, but why would you involve the state licensing board for a contractor giving his honest opinion? 

[Levant]

You didn't say you gave your opinion. You said you made them sign a statement that is not supported by code. 

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[zxcvbob]

The only AL wiring at this house is the overhead line from the pole to the house, and the overhead drop from the house to the garage.  But in the past, I have used it for things like stoves, welders, dryers, and subpanels.  All the high-amperage feeders here are very short so it made no sense to use aluminum, but it works just fine in its place (long runs of big wire with not a lot of connections)

[geronimotwo]

You didn't say you gave your opinion. You said you made them sign a statement that is not supported by code. 

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they sign a statement that affirms that I have told them my opinion of al wiring, and the possible fire hazards associated with it.  it has nothing to do with code.

[Levant]

Done right, aluminum is as safe as copper. From a homeowner's perspective, the only real downside is that they shouldn't do repairs or additions themselves due to the special requirements.

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[geronimotwo]

Done right, aluminum is as safe as copper. From a homeowner's perspective, the only real downside is that they shouldn't do repairs or additions themselves due to the special requirements.

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you wouldn't be trying to sell a house to zahc by any chance?   

[K Frame]

Done right, aluminum is as safe as copper. From a homeowner's perspective, the only real downside is that they shouldn't do repairs or additions themselves due to the special requirements.

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That's the rub - done right.

It's far easier to ensure that things are done right with copper than with aluminum, especially for the average homeowner.

I personally would never purchase a home where the wiring was aluminum.

[Levant]

That's the rub - done right.

It's far easier to ensure that things are done right with copper than with aluminum, especially for the average homeowner.

I personally would never purchase a home where the wiring was aluminum.

I agree.  Average homeowners should not mess with aluminum wiring.  Done incorrectly would lead to corrosion that would lead to arcing and heating that a circuit breaker would not protect you from.  If you had arc-fault breakers you could hope but even then they don't protect against all arcing scenarios. Bimetal junctions can be wonderful things.  In the walls of your house they are extremely dangerous.

I would never own a home with aluminum wiring past the service entrance and would prefer not even the service entrance wiring be aluminum.