Author Topic: My Islamic Terror Birthday Party  (Read 2573 times)

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« on: August 30, 2006, 10:09:34 PM »
Happy Birthday to me!  I'm thirty today!  OK, yesterday, the 30 of Aug.

Tonight, there happened to be a guest speaker in town at the local Aish Hatorah.  OK, it wasn't at the Aish Hatorah; it was at the Frontenac Hilton.  The guest speaker was none other than Walid Shoebat, plugging a documentary in which he appears: Obsession: Radical Islam's War Against the West.  

Perhaps you've never heard of the man, but I have heard him a number of times on Christian radio.  He was at one time a member of the PLO - a terrorist.  He is now living in the US under an assumed name, as he has converted to Christianity and become a Zionist.

The film, Obsession, is moving.  It consists largely of clips from Middle Eastern television, with subtitles, featuring jihadist sermons from religious and political leaders.  Most bizarre is a television series in which some Jews (just your typical, ordinary Jews, mind you) slit the throat of a young gentile boy and drain his blood into a pan.  The blood libel lives.

There are also scenes of the "Arab street" burning flags and what-not, both in the East and in the West.  Scenes of young children making their parents proud with aspirations of martyrdom.  Interviews with refugees such as Shoebat, telling of the indoctrination and hatred of the Arab world.

The most interesting, perhaps, is the footage of Hitler meeting with the Mufti of Jerusalem, who helped him to recruit Bosnians and other Muslims for special fighting units.  Also, a Hitler Youth member is interviewed.  And Neville Chamberlain appears, brandishing his freshly-signed agreement with Hitler.  

Some interesting insights:  
Militants make up 10-15% of the Muslim world, but in the Arab world, 73% prefer Hamas to the Palestinian Authority.  

Shoebat:  "It's true 'jihad' means self-struggle, but so does Mein Kampf."

We were watching a Western Muslim tell his followers that they would rule the US and the UK, and a few other things, when my wife pointed out that he sounded like Howard Dean.  "We're gonna go to Michigan, and to Oregon, and to..."  Smiley

http://www.obsessionthemovie.com/

http://www.shoebat.com/

http://www.aish.com/
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Sindawe

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 2,938
  • Vashneesht
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2006, 10:50:39 PM »
Quote
Happy Birthday to me!  I'm thirty today!  OK, yesterday, the 30 of Aug.
HAPPY 30TH!!!  Now where are my presents? Wink

Hmmm... I'll have to check out that documentary.  The trailer brings to mind a few other fanatical beliefs that had pretty much the same goals.  I wonder if the nations today have that strength of old which we once possessed and used to finaly put down those aberrations of society.
I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2006, 10:58:07 PM »
Uh ohhh, it's all downhill from here shocked

Happy Birthday!

Quote
my wife pointed out that he sounded like Howard Dean.  "We're gonna go to Michigan, and to Oregon, and to..."
Yea but did he say "EEEEYYYYAAAAHHHHHH!!!" at the end? It's no good without the "EEEYYYYAAAAHHHHHH!!!" Cheesy
Avoid cliches like the plague!

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2006, 12:14:03 AM »
Quote
Perhaps you've never heard of the man, but I have heard him a number of times on Christian radio.  He was at one time a member of the PLO - a terrorist.  He is now living in the US under an assumed name, as he has converted to Christianity and become a Zionist.
I've heard of him.  From his commentaries on Islam, it's doubtful that he ever was Muslim (he gets even the most basic teachings on warfare wrong in his polemics.)  That combined with his phoney name make it hard to confirm if he ever had any connection to the PLO or any connection to Islam.  (The two are separate: the PLO is not and never has been a religious organization.  It explicitly rejects alliance with Muslim groups.)

Quote
There are also scenes of the "Arab street" burning flags and what-not, both in the East and in the West.  Scenes of young children making their parents proud with aspirations of martyrdom.  Interviews with refugees such as Shoebat, telling of the indoctrination and hatred of the Arab world.
It's true, the Arabs are militantly anti-Israel and radicalized by the corruption and cooperation between their own governments and Israelis and the US.  But to blame this entirely on religion is disingenuous and ignores the fact that, before Arab nationalism and zionism reached the middle east, Jews and Muslims actually got along fairly well.

People like Shoebat are inventing false histories that prevent returning to the long era of cooperation between Jews and Muslims.  I think it's especially distasteful to see Westerners and Christians participating in this process, since we have been the most guilty of persecuting Jews throughout history.  It is dangerous to ignore the long tradition of immoral and violent anti-semitism in the US and Europe, by focusing on the rise of Arab radicals today.

It also doesn't help to combat anti-semitism in the Arab world that we completely ignore the legitimate human rights claims of Palestinians.  They have not had anything resembling political or basic human rights for half a century now, so it shouldn't be surprising that anti-Israel groups are popular there.  The PLO promised compromise and secularism would win them something (under Arafat), and it didn't win them anything...so now they're turning to the Islamic groups, who despite their crazy rhetoric, do in fact deliver services without robbing the national coffers, and have succeeded in pressuring the other Arab states to cool relations with the US and Israel.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2006, 02:58:40 AM »
Quote from: ss
...before Arab nationalism and zionism reached the middle east, Jews and Muslims actually got along fairly well.
Before arab nationalism & zionism reached the ME, the ME was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, which ruthlessly crushed any dissent and troublemaking.

Just imagine the outward appearance of calm that prevails after the Turks came to a troublesome village, burnt it to the ground, and impaled the inhabitants as examples to other potential troublemakers...
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2006, 03:18:20 AM »
Quote from: jfruser
Quote from: ss
...before Arab nationalism and zionism reached the middle east, Jews and Muslims actually got along fairly well.
Before arab nationalism & zionism reached the ME, the ME was ruled by the Ottoman Empire, which ruthlessly crushed any dissent and troublemaking.
The Empire did not rely on strength of arms for its existence, and as soon as it needed to, it crumbled.  One of the peoplse it did fight (against US and British desires) were the forefathers of modern day Saudi Arabia; there was a gang that fought anyone and everyone, including other Arabs.

And even with the internal disputes that plagued the Ottomans towards the end, all parties involved were uninterested in persecuting Jews.  Anti-semitic racism was, plain and simple, not a part of the culture at that time.  Jews were coexisting with Arabs and other Muslims in their traditional communities throughout the region at the time, and even now they remain in Iran and Syria.


Quote
Just imagine the outward appearance of calm that prevails after the Turks came to a troublesome village, burnt it to the ground, and impaled the inhabitants as examples to other potential troublemakers...
This started to happen when Turkey ceased to consider itself a Muslim Empire, and embraced Turkish nationalism.  You might be interested in taking a look at where the refugees from the Secularist massacres went for sanctuary...Syria was a prime destination at that time for Christian Armenians and a host of other ethnic minorities who were persecuted in the name of Turkish secular nationalism.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

280plus

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 19,131
  • Ever get that sinking feeling?
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2006, 03:45:32 AM »
Quote
This started to happen when Turkey ceased to consider itself a Muslim Empire, and embraced Turkish nationalism.
I think it's an interesting point that it was actually more a Turkish thing as opposed to a Muslim thing.
Avoid cliches like the plague!

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2006, 04:14:30 AM »
I can't believe this was at an event sponsored by Aish.  Their standards are slipping.

Guy sounds like a fraud or a nut-job, maybe both.  It is no surprise that most Palestinians prefer Hamas.  Hamas has provided a big infrastructure of humanitarian services to the Palestinians.  The PLO has mostly pilfered international aid.  THat doesnt mean Hamas is filled with wonderful guys.  They are terrorists but smart enough to provide social servies and get recruits.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2006, 04:47:11 AM »
The Rabbi said it more clearly than I did.

Hamas and the other Islamist organizations are not filled with nice, peace loving people.  But, unlike the leftist groups that used to reign, they don't rob the Palestinians blind at every corner.  They also actually want to advance the Palestinian causes (however distorted their methods and aims are), instead of just dragging out the conflict forever in order to keep stealing aid money and funneling it to their wives and cronies.  This makes them popular.

It's a real disgrace that the traditional relations between Jews and Muslims have been abandoned this way.  The theological and historical roots for friendship between Jews and Muslims are infinitely stronger than they are for Jewish-Christian relations, but things are going in the opposite direction these days.

I certainly hope that when Muslims cease to be the public enemy de jour, that western societies won't get back to their ancient and evil habit of blaming Jews for all the world's ills.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #9 on: August 31, 2006, 05:05:26 AM »
Quote from: shootinstudent
It also doesn't help to combat anti-semitism in the Arab world that we completely ignore the legitimate human rights claims of Palestinians.
There isn't any such thing as a "Palastinian".  The only time there ever was a "Palastine" is when the Romans got so mad at the Jews that they re-named Israel "Palestine", which was a Romanization of the name of the Israelli's ancient enemy, the Philistines.  What language do "Palestinians" Speak?  (Arabic)  What food do they eat? (Arabian)  What culture do they have?  (Arab) They are ISRAELLI ARABS - most of whom fled Israel when the Islamic sountries around it told them to, so they wouldn't be "in the way" while they drove the Jews into the sea, (BTW, hows that working out for, Arabs?) in 1948, (and 1967, and 1973....).  And for the record, Israel has offered many times to compensate them for any lost property *IF* the Arab countries would compensate the Jews that forced out of THEIR countries for the property they lost.  Also BTW, you'll kindly note their arent "Jewish refugee" camps in Israel for the last 50 years - why hasn't 'Arab Unity" resettled these displaced people in Arab countries?  Like the one set aside for them originally - Jordan?  Calling some one a "Palestinian" doesn't make them one, any more than calling intra-womb infanticide "pro-choice" makes it any less horrible.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2006, 05:17:14 AM »
Quote
There isn't any such thing as a "Palastinian".  The only time there ever was a "Palastine" is when the Romans got so mad at the Jews that they re-named Israel "Palestine", which was a Romanization of the name of the Israelli's ancient enemy, the Philistines.
Okay, that Roman name was in constant use for nearly 2000 years, and you think it's out of bounds for a person from that land (called by the filisteen for 2000 years, mind you) to call himself/herself a Palestinian???

Quote
What language do "Palestinians" Speak?  (Arabic)  What food do they eat? (Arabian)  What culture do they have?  (Arab) They are ISRAELLI ARABS - most of whom fled Israel when the Islamic sountries around it told them to, so they wouldn't be "in the way" while they drove the Jews into the sea
Americans speak English.  Does that mean we're really British?  They were recognized as distinct by all the parties investigating the Palestine mandate, and they never were citizens of any of the surrounding Arab states...so again, I'm going to have to say that Palestinian is an entirely appropriate term.

Can you please provide some credible evidence for this claim that most Arabs left Israel because other Arabs asked them to?  The only reliable sources I've ever seen attribute the exodus to hardships of war and mass panic that militias would slaughter any Arabs who stayed.

On top of that, they fled to land that at the time, wasn't part of Israel...and that's now the West Bank and Gaza, which even Israel agrees is not inhabited by people who will ever be Israeli citizens.  (They couldn't be, or there would not be a Jewish state...it would have something like 45 percent Arab citizenship.)

Quote
Israel has offered many times to compensate them for any lost property *IF* the Arab countries would compensate the Jews that forced out of THEIR countries for the property they lost.
Could you please direct me to the text of this offer? I've never even heard of it.

Quote
why hasn't 'Arab Unity" resettled these displaced people in Arab countries?  Like the one set aside for them originally - Jordan?
Because they aren't Jordanians or Egyptians, and they don't want to be resettled.  They want to go back to their homes, and the homes of their parents and grandparents.  Arab unity movements were doomed from the beginning...yet another reason why the Islamic radicals are making gains today.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #11 on: August 31, 2006, 05:23:59 AM »
Well, now we've got Rabbi on the case, and richyoung, who seems confused on the proper spelling of "Palastinian."  When these two begin to swipe at each other, the rest of us might as well let this thread go.


Quote from: shootinstudent
 From his commentaries on Islam, it's doubtful that he ever was Muslim (he gets even the most basic teachings on warfare wrong in his polemics.)  That combined with his phoney name make it hard to confirm if he ever had any connection to the PLO or any connection to Islam.
shootinstudent, do you have any connection to Islam?  What are your bona fides on the subject, and which teachings on warfare are you talking about?
 
Quote
to blame this entirely on religion is disingenuous and ignores the fact that, before Arab nationalism and zionism reached the middle east, Jews and Muslims actually got along fairly well.
I don't know that Shoebat or those who made "Obsession" are contending that Islam is the only problem, or that it is inherently violent, although you may know more about that than I.  Having just watched the film, I can tell you it speaks of "reforming" Islam and of taking it back from those who have "hijacked" it, rather than treating is an inherently evil or warlike.  But your claim that "Jews and Muslims actually got along fairly well" seems to gloss over certain facts.  Doesn't the Koran demand second-class citizenship for non-believers?  Even if it does not, isn't this the history of the region?  Whether that is better or worse than the anti-Semitism of the modern Arab world or the medieval Christian world is irrelevant to that question.
 
Quote
It is dangerous to ignore the long tradition of immoral and violent anti-semitism in the US and Europe, by focusing on the rise of Arab radicals today.
So you agree with Shoebat and the film, which point out the similarities between Nazism and Radical Islam.  
 
Quote
It also doesn't help to combat anti-semitism in the Arab world that we completely ignore the legitimate human rights claims of Palestinians.  They have not had anything resembling political or basic human rights for half a century now
I don't claim to know a lot about the history of Palestinians, but I must question when they ever had "basic human rights."  Say what you will about the peaceful, tolerant society of the Ottomans, human rights was not a part of that culture, was it?
Who ignores their rights?  I don't.  If I understand correctly, Shoebat supports the rights of Palestinians to full citizenship in Israel.  

FWIW, I am a recovering Christian Zionist, myself.  I support Israel, with some reservation, but I wish the founders of Israel had just settled in America.  Perhaps I am naive on that point, but it seems a better solution.  Israel may have been their home at one time, but I'm not gonna give back America to the Aboriginals or give Spain back to the Celts, either.  While we're at it, the Blacks would have to go back to Africa, and half of England would have to relocate to Saxony or the Nordic states.  Huegonot descendants would relocate to France.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

Perd Hapley

  • Superstar of the Internet
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 62,152
  • My prepositions are on/in
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2006, 05:26:41 AM »
Oh, I forgot that the Scots would be sent to Ireland and the Aboriginal Americans would be sent packing to Mongolia or there-abouts.
Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God?
--Thomas Jefferson

The Rabbi

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 4,435
  • "Ahh, Jeez. Not this sh*t again!"
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2006, 05:45:50 AM »
Jews and Muslims traditionally enjoyed very good relations.  Part of the proof of that is that Jewish communities in Arab countries have a much longer continuous history than Jews in Christian countries.  The Jewish community of Iran dates back to the destruction of the First Temple.  And people there can trace their lineage sometimes back that far.  That rarely if ever happens in European communities.

Second, regardless of the historical claims of Israelis and Palestinians on who is what and who did what, we have a situation now that needs to be dealt with.  No one has suggested a viable solution that has any chance of being implemented.  No Arab country wants the Palestinians, who are viewed as troublemakers and low-lifes (probably for good reason).  The best hope is to insist on reform in the PA or else wall it off and let them destroy themselves.  I don't see another way.
Fight state-sponsored Islamic terrorism: Bomb France now!

Vote Libertarian: It Not Like It Matters Anyway.

Nightfall

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 916
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #14 on: August 31, 2006, 05:48:32 AM »
Happy b-day fistful. Ya'll have fun with your big important discussion. I'm gonna go watch cartoons. Cheesy
It is difficult if not impossible to reason a person out of a position they did not reason themselves into. - 230RN

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2006, 08:06:16 AM »
Quote from: shootinstudent
Quote
There isn't any such thing as a "Palastinian".  The only time there ever was a "Palastine" is when the Romans got so mad at the Jews that they re-named Israel "Palestine", which was a Romanization of the name of the Israelli's ancient enemy, the Philistines.
Okay, that Roman name was in constant use for nearly 2000 years, and you think it's out of bounds for a person from that land (called by the filisteen for 2000 years, mind you) to call himself/herself a Palestinian???
You don't know much history, do you?  That "Roman name" was a deliberate insult, was NOT in use for anywhere NEAR 2000 years, (ever heard of the Ottoman Empire?) and NOT chosen by its residents.
Quote
Quote
What language do "Palestinians" Speak?  (Arabic)  What food do they eat? (Arabian)  What culture do they have?  (Arab) They are ISRAELLI ARABS - most of whom fled Israel when the Islamic sountries around it told them to, so they wouldn't be "in the way" while they drove the Jews into the sea
Americans speak English.  Does that mean we're really British?
...again, not much of a history buff, I see.  We WERE originally British, and had to fight two wars to be something OTHER than British.  No parallel with the so-called "Palestinians".

Quote
They were recognized as distinct by all the parties investigating the Palestine mandate, and they never were citizens of any of the surrounding Arab states...so again, I'm going to have to say that Palestinian is an entirely appropriate term.
Arab activist Musa Alami despaired: as he saw the problem, "how can people struggle for their nation, when most of them do not know the meaning of the word? ... The people are in great need of a 'myth' to fill their consciousness and imagination. . . ." According to Alami, ar indoctrination of the "myth" of nationality would create "identity" and "self-respect.

However, Alami's proposal was confounded by the realities: between 1948 and 1967, the Arab state of Jordan claimed annexation of the territory west of the Jordan River, the "West Bank" area of Palestine -- the same area that would later be forwarded by Arab "moderates" as a "mini-state" for the "Palestinians." Thus, that area was, between 1948 and 1967, called "Arab land," the peoples were Arabs, and yet the "myth" that Musa Alami prescribed-the cause of "Palestine" for the "Palestinians" -- remained unheralded, unadopted by the Arabs during two decades. According to Lord Caradon, "Every Arab assumed the Palestinians [refugees] would go back to Jordan."




Quote
Can you please provide some credible evidence for this claim that most Arabs left Israel because other Arabs asked them to?  The only reliable sources I've ever seen attribute the exodus to hardships of war and mass panic that militias would slaughter any Arabs who stayed.
The U.S. Consul-General in Haifa, Aubrey Lippincott, wrote on April 22, 1948, for example, that "local mufti-dominated Arab leaders" were urging "all Arabs to leave the city, and large numbers did so."

The Economist reported on October 2, 1948: "Of the 62,000 Arabs who formerly lived in Haifa not more than 5,000 or 6,000 remained. Various factors influenced their decision to seek safety in flight. There is but little doubt that the most potent of the factors were the announcements made over the air by the Higher Arab Executive, urging the Arabs to quit....It was clearly intimated that those Arabs who remained in Haifa and accepted Jewish protection would be regarded as renegades."

Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said declared: "We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down."

On April 3, 1949, the Near East Broadcasting Station (Cyprus) said: "It must not be forgotten that the Arab Higher Committee encouraged the refugees' flight from their homes in Jaffa, Haifa and Jerusalem."27

"The Arab States encouraged the Palestine Arabs to leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies," according to the Jordanian newspaper Filastin (February 19, 1949).

One refugee quoted in the Jordan newspaper, Ad Difaa (September 6, 1954), said: "The Arab government told us: Get out so that we can get in. So we got out, but they did not get in."


The Arab National Committee in Jerusalem, following the March 8, 1948, instructions of the Arab Higher Committee, ordered women, children and the elderly in various parts of Jerusalem to leave their homes: "Any opposition to this order...is an obstacle to the holy war...and will hamper the operations of the fighters in these districts" (Middle Eastern Studies, January 1986).

"Since 1948 Arab leaders have approached the Palestine problem
in an irresponsible manner.... they have used the Palestine
people for selfish political purposes. This is ridiculous and,
I could say, even criminal."
-- King Hussein of Jordan, 1960

"Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees...  while it is we who made them leave.... We brought disaster upon ... Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave.... We have rendered them dispossessed.... We have accustomed them to begging.... We have participated in lowering their moral and social level.... Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon ... men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes .... "
-- Khaled Al-Azm, Syria's Prime Minister after the 1948 war

The Secretary-General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha, assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade," said Habib Issa in the New York Lebanese paper, Al Hoda (June 8, 1951). "He pointed out that they were already on the frontiers and that all the millions the Jews had spent on land and economic development would be easy booty, for it would be a simple matter to throw Jews into the Mediterranean....Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes and property and to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of the invading Arab armies mow them down.

According to a research report by the Arab-sponsored Institute for Palestine Studies in Beirut, "the majority" of the Arab refugees in 1948 were not expelled, and "68%" left without seeing an Israeli soldier.
Quote
Quote
Israel has offered many times to compensate them for any lost property *IF* the Arab countries would compensate the Jews that forced out of THEIR countries for the property they lost.
Could you please direct me to the text of this offer? I've never even heard of it.
David Ben­Gurion (August 1, 1948):

"When the Arab states are ready to conclude a peace treaty with Israel this question will come up for constructive solution as part of the general settlement, and with due regard to our counter­claims in respect of the destruction of Jewish life and property, the long-term interest of the Jewish and Arab populations, the stability of the State of Israel and the durability of the basis of peace between it and its neighbors, the actual position and fate of the Jewish communities in the Arab countries, the responsibilities of the Arab governments for their war of aggression and their liability for reparation, will all be relevant in the question whether, to what extent, and under what conditions, the former Arab residents of the territory of Israel should be allowed to return."

The Palestinian demand for the 'right of return' is totally unrealistic and would have to be solved by means of financial compensation and resettlement in Arab countries.
 Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2006, 08:55:31 AM »
richyoung:

Your bringing fact into the argument is nothing more than neo-zionazicon cultural imperialism!

Or, maybe, it really went down that way and folks ought to suck it up and deal with the consequences of their (& their fathers') decisions.

Really, I don't sit around whining and blowing up French public transport because Charlemagne warred on my ancestors, destroyed their holy places, killed prisoners in cold blood, captured others and sold them into slavery.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2006, 01:49:35 PM »
richyoung,

I'm certainly enough of a history buff to recognize cut and paste from propaganda sites when I see it.  It'd be a lot more credible if you actually gave sources you'd seen, instead of cutting and pasting material directly from eretzysrael.org.  Would you take me seriously if I gave you a list of papers I obviously had never read, cut and pasted directly from Al Manar central?  I could spend a few hours debunking every single piece you posted...but there's no point in doing that, because you'll just cut and paste from a different propaganda site.

The claim that 90 percent of the Arab population in 1948 Israel (again, not to be confused with 1967 Israel) by invitation is ridiculous, and not supported by any evidence whatosever.  If you can some up with something more than a cut and paste from the Settler lobby, I'd like to see it.  The claim is a sham, pure and simple.

But then again, that all misses the point of the problem today, which is the Palestinians who stayed...in the West Bank and Gaza.  They're all still there, and they were there before 1948.  Except that now Israel has military control over their areas.  They aren't asking to come back to Israel; they're sitting in their houses posing a big problem for settlement building and for the Likud party, which wants to extend the border of Israel all the way to the Jordan river.

So what do you plan on doing with the 45 percent of the population that lives there?  Shooting them all, expel them, what?  

Israeli radicalism has provoked and galvanized Arab radicals in this conflict, and it is impossible to separate the blame for this away from one side or the other.  I do think that the best solution is a complete return to the 1967 line in exchange for demilitarization of the entire Palestinian state, and international monitors in East Jerusalem to guarantee access to people all of faiths.  It won't stop all terrorism, but they're not being stopped now anyway, and that plan would severely undermine their credibility with the locals.
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2006, 02:41:50 PM »
Quote from: shootinstudent
richyoung,

I'm certainly enough of a history buff to recognize cut and paste from propaganda sites when I see it.  It'd be a lot more credible if you actually gave sources you'd seen, instead of cutting and pasting material directly from eretzysrael.org.
Not all of them are from there.  Those that are are footnoted to the original source.  How does the PARTICULAR site I get them from affect their TRUTH, which I notice, you choose not to argue, prefering to attack the source.  Go ahead - tell me ONE of the quotes is wrong - and prove it.

Quote
Would you take me seriously if I gave you a list of papers I obviously had never read, cut and pasted directly from Al Manar central?
I read them.  Thats how I knew they existed.  As to taking you seriously, its a long shot, but if you started posting FACTS, instead of islamofascist agitprop, REGARDLESS of source, I suppose it could happen....

Quote
I could spend a few hours debunking every single piece you posted...
No you couldn't...or you woulod.  You will note most tof the sources quoted are ARAB leaders, and ARAB newspapers.  Are they somehow part of the vast Zionist conspiracy?
Quote
but there's no point in doing that, because you'll just cut and paste from a different propaganda site.
Translation: you are too lazy to dig up some more bull-sh'ite in the face of irrefutable facts....

Quote
The claim that 90 percent of the Arab population in 1948 Israel (again, not to be confused with 1967 Israel) by invitation is ridiculous, and not supported by any evidence whatosever.  If you can some up with something more than a cut and paste from the Settler lobby, I'd like to see it.  The claim is a sham, pure and simple.
The Jews were literally pleading with them to stay.
Quote
But then again, that all misses the point of the problem today, which is the Palestinians who stayed...in the West Bank and Gaza.  They're all still there, and they were there before 1948.  Except that now Israel has military control over their areas.
As opposed to Jordanm having control over it?  WHere was the griping then?  Sucks losing, doesn't it.  Next time, before bragging how the Arabs are going to run the Jews into the sea, you might consider the consequences of (routinely) getting your collective  butts kicked ... yoiu tend to loose territory that way.
Quote
They aren't asking to come back to Israel; they're sitting in their houses posing a big problem for settlement building and for the Likud party, which wants to extend the border of Israel all the way to the Jordan river.
..and what happened tot he property of the 620 thousand Jews run out of the Arab countries at the same time?  You seem stangely silent on that issue...

Quote
So what do you plan on doing with the 45 percent of the population that lives there?  Shooting them all, expel them, what?
They will have settle in the coutries of their Arab brothers, just as those 620,000 Jews from Arab countries had to settle in Israel.
Quote
Israeli radicalism has provoked and galvanized Arab radicals in this conflict, and it is impossible to separate the blame for this away from one side or the other.
So the "Israeli radicalism" CAUSES the Arab radicalism, and thereby excuses it?  The Jews are to blame, the terrorists not?  har, har, har, har...
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

De Selby

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 6,859
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2006, 04:42:48 PM »
Okay, where do we start:

1.  If you want to waste time quoting from grossly biased propaganda sites, you'll have to do that with someone else.  We can spend all year cutting and pasting counter lists from Arab and Israeli propaganda sites, and get nowhere, and much worse...we'll all be dumber for having not actually read any of the source material.  That's why it's not worth the time to dig up "counter facts"; because you didn't give a real assessment of the facts in the first place, and because if you actually are willing to accept whatever Eretzysrael or Al Manar tells you as truth without checking for yourself, no amount of my posting will change that.

2.  
Quote
The Jews were literally pleading with them to stay.
So you're saying the early Zionists didn't actually want a homeland for Jews??? They wanted to live in a country where the voting majority was Arab and Muslim???  

Right.  This is a silly assertion.  The function of the early zionists was to create a state for Jews.  There was no possible way to do that as long as the population was a majority or near majority inside the borders of Israel...so they "redrew" the lines as best they could and ejected those they could.  In those days, Zionist politicians seemed to have the foresight to realize how draining and demoralizing it would be to have a Jewish state where most of the reisdent weren't Jews.  After 1967, someone forgot that fact, and the result is the mess we have today.

Quote
They will have settle in the coutries of their Arab brothers, just as those 620,000 Jews from Arab countries had to settle in Israel.
Okay, for the third time: The Palestinians we're talking about aren't in other countries living as refugees.  They live, right now, within the borders claimed by Likud for Israel...that is, the West Bank and Gaza.  That's where they are, so what do you propose to do with them?

Do you want to expel them all? Or kill them all? Or what?  What's your plan for the 45 percent or so non-voting, non-citizen, angry Arab population that currently resides on that strip of land?

Quote
So the "Israeli radicalism" CAUSES the Arab radicalism, and thereby excuses it?  The Jews are to blame, the terrorists not?  har, har, har, har...
Who said anything about excuse? You seem to be denying that it happened.  Again, that flies in the face of the facts...the same people who bombed the British Embassy in Rome and the King David Hotel were not angels.  The Likud party likewise are not angels, and they promote policies which are bad for Israel.  Bad policy and violence tend to inflame radicalism on the receiving end, you know...
"Human existence being an hallucination containing in itself the secondary hallucinations of day and night (the latter an insanitary condition of the atmosphere due to accretions of black air) it ill becomes any man of sense to be concerned at the illusory approach of the supreme hallucination known as death."

Twycross

  • friend
  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 264
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2006, 05:00:23 PM »

grampster

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 9,514
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2006, 05:24:25 PM »
You know what seems to be the major problem in the ME vis a vis Isreal vs et al, is that most of the rational people are engaged in He Said, She Said, while the rest of everyone either plods along in acceptance of their apparent ill fortunate destiny or engages in activity that results in death, maiming and destruction while ramping up hatred.

The polyglot Arab/Middle easterner/Muslim governments need to simply recognize the fact that the Jews are not  1.) ever going to go away and that  2.) there is nothing militarily that can be done to shove them into the sea.  Don't even begin to try and exclaim that Hezbollah "won" their encounter.   Nobody with any brains thinks that, particularly Nasralla (sp?)     1.  Israel held back.  2.  Israel has nukes.   If Israel wanted to occupy Lebanon and destroy Syria, they would have.  Iran has fallen into the trap, believing that they came out on the long end of the stick.  So they will puff awhile.  Iran has 15 minutes of fame coming.

Both Arab and Jew have much to offer the world in many ways.  As an outsider, it seems to me that most of what Israel has done over the last few years has been more reactive rather than proactive.  The past is done.  Israel has withdrawn at a great expense to molify the Arab.  They have in essence agreed to a "Palestinian state".  Israel has said they do not want to fight.

Has the Arab/Muslim world reacted with positivity to what Israel has done recently?  He who has eyes, let him see; he who has ears let him hear, in this regard.


It is, imho,  time for the illuminati of Islam to either disavow their apostate brethren,  and be satisfied to draw those to them who would come by their own free will.  A religion that seeks converts at the point of the sword has little confidence in the power of truth.  Other religions have seen the fallacy of violent conversion.  It is time for Islam to recognize the same truth.
"Never wrestle with a pig.  You get dirty, and besides, the pig likes it."  G.B. Shaw

roo_ster

  • Kakistocracy--It's What's For Dinner.
  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 21,225
  • Hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #22 on: September 01, 2006, 05:51:25 AM »
shootinstudent:

You bring no honor to yourself when brought facts, you decide to spin, bob, weave & dissemble.  At least in this culture.

You challenged richyoung to provide facts to support his assertions.  He has done so.  Address the facts or do the honorable thing and concede the point.  

FWIW, some of us have read primary sources from both sides.  richyoung's quotations are accurate and verifiable on the 'net and from the primary print sources, many of which are available in translation for those who do not read Hebrew or Arabic.
Regards,

roo_ster

“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”
----G.K. Chesterton

richyoung

  • friend
  • Senior Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 1,242
  • bring a big gun
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2006, 06:22:39 AM »
Quote from: shootinstudent
Okay, where do we start:

1.  If you want to waste time quoting from grossly biased propaganda sites, you'll have to do that with someone else.  We can spend all year cutting and pasting counter lists from Arab and Israeli propaganda sites, and get nowhere, and much worse...we'll all be dumber for having not actually read any of the source material.  That's why it's not worth the time to dig up "counter facts"; because you didn't give a real assessment of the facts in the first place, and because if you actually are willing to accept whatever Eretzysrael or Al Manar tells you as truth without checking for yourself, no amount of my posting will change that.
You have been challenged over and over to point out ONE quote that is materially inaccurate or mistranslated.  You have failed to do so.  Speaks volumes.
Quote
2.  
Quote
The Jews were literally pleading with them to stay.
So you're saying the early Zionists didn't actually want a homeland for Jews??? They wanted to live in a country where the voting majority was Arab and Muslim???
Can't answer for what they wanted, but here is what they said at the time:

 The Assembly of Palestine Jewry issued this appeal on October 2, 1947:

We will do everything in our power to maintain peace, and establish a cooperation gainful to both [Jews and Arabs]. It is now, here and now, from Jerusalem itself, that a call must go out to the Arab nations to join forces with Jewry and the destined Jewish State and work shoulder to shoulder for our common good, for the peace and progress of sovereign equals.

On November 30, the day after the UN partition vote, the Jewish Agency announced: "The main theme behind the spontaneous celebrations we are witnessing today is our community's desire to seek peace and its determination to achieve fruitful cooperation with the Arabs...."5

Israel's Proclamation of Independence, issued May 14, 1948, also invited the Palestinians to remain in their homes and become equal citizens in the new state:

In the midst of wanton aggression, we yet call upon the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve the ways of peace and play their part in the development of the State, on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its bodies and institutions....We extend our hand in peace and neighborliness to all the neighboring states and their peoples, and invite them to cooperate with the independent Jewish nation for the common good of all.

Quote
Right.  This is a silly assertion.  The function of the early zionists was to create a state for Jews.
Again, not much of a history buff, huh.  Who owned and controlled the land?  The British Empire did - took it fair and square from the Ottoman Empire.  (See: Lawrence of Arabia).  It was THEIRS - do do with as they please, and so the people on it.  Lucky for Arabs, they didn't take the oil and plow hte ground with salt - they established most of the modern countries in the Middle East - with the reservation that a Jewish state was to be created in its historical location.  Its called the BALFOUR DECLARATION.  If that means some Arabs have to relocate - so what?  Its not like they are the ONLY people to have to migrate.

Quote
Do you want to expel them all? Or kill them all? Or what?  What's your plan for the 45 percent or so non-voting, non-citizen, angry Arab population that currently resides on that strip of land?
After the Olympic massacre, numerous hijacked airliners, bombs blowing up children in school buses and teens in discotheques, World Trade Center attacks I and II, th Cole, numerous embassy and barracks bombings, you really do NOT want to here what *I* want to do to them.  One alternative would involve a bus ticket to an Arab country - the only other alternative would be something they much less would prefer to ride.
Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow for those who don't...

cosine

  • Administrator
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3,734
My Islamic Terror Birthday Party
« Reply #24 on: September 01, 2006, 06:51:03 AM »
Might as well wish fistful a Happy Birthday. Smiley (hope it doesn't get lost in all the long, boring, political posts. Tongue)
Andy