the customer is always right?

[geronimotwo]

i have a customer with a metal building that's 48'x76'.  they want me to do some work, one part of which is to install 2 79' (with overhang) gutters.  i told them i would need to install 5 downspouts per length.  they insist that they have talked to the distributer and that 1 downspout per side can handle all of the water flow.   

these are the same paople who asked my opinoin on which excavator to hire last fall, the $6000 guy who would bring in 6" of material, or the $12000 guy who would remove the topsoil first and then replace it with 10" of material.  this is for a school bus driveway so i went with the second guy and they didn't.  now it is a mushy mess every time it thaws.

[Hawkmoon]

There are formulae in the building code (actually it's probably in the plumbing code, but I'm not certain on that) for calculating leader size. Of course it can be done with one leader per side ... but that's going to be a humongous leader.

This may help: http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ipc/2012/icod_ipc_2012_11_sec006.htm?bu=IC-P-2012-000004&bu2=IC-P-2012-000019

[geronimotwo]

but it's not just the capacity of the leader, it's also the flow of the water in the gutter.  and they want the leader put on one end as well.

[Boomhauer]

Whoever came up with the saying "the customer is always right" should be shot.


When it comes to building, most people want the bare minimum they can get away with and the cheapest they can get away with. They are too *expletive deleted*ing stupid to think of the future, they only care about the "here and now"


*expletive deleted*ck what the distributor says, all the distributor does is recieve the buildings from the company and sell it to you. They don't have the customer's best interest in mind. That's a hell of a lot of water coming off that large of a building.

[Hawkmoon]

but it's not just the capacity of the leader, it's also the flow of the water in the gutter.  and they want the leader put on one end as well.

The plumbing code also governs the size of the gutter(s).

It would also perhaps be helpful to remind them that the building code (of which the plumbing code is one part) is a minimum standard. As a contractor, you are not legally allowed to install anything that doesn't conform to the code. As a building owner, if they install something less and there's a problem ... their insurance company may well come out, take a look, and decline to pay because the gutter and leader system was obviously in violation of code requirements.

That said, I think 5 leaders in 80 feet is excessive. My house is 75 feet long and only has two leaders. Of course, it isn't as wide as a factory, but it also doesn't have large leaders.

Check out the link I added above (while you were posting).

[HankB]

. . . When it comes to building, most people want the bare minimum they can get away with and the cheapest they can get away with. They are too *expletive deleted* stupid to think of the future, they only care about the "here and now" . . .

QFT.

Case in point: Quite a few decades ago, my father was an engineer with a consulting firm. He wasn't an architect, but somehow it fell to him to design a fairly large custom storage building in the Chicago area. So he read up on building codes, factored in snow loads, and came up with a plan that used something like 8" I-beams^** for the roof trusses. Well, somewhere along the line, the customer got together with the contractor and CHANGED the specs to 5" or 6" I-beams - and spaced them farther apart.  

And that very winter, they had a heavy, wet snow . . . with predictable results.

After the building collapse, the customer filed suit against the consulting company for poor design . . . but when it turned out during the discovery process that the customer and contractor had CHANGED the specs on their own and the consulting company was NOT hired to supervise the design, the suit was dropped like a hot potato.

^** - The exact numbers on the trusses and the specs don't matter - I wasn't even around at the time - but the point is Dad designed for a probable worst-case scenario and someone else went a cheaper route . . . which was considerably more expensive in the long run.

[geronimotwo]

thanks for the link.    

let's see, each side is 32'x79=2528ft2.

it shows we have 2.5" rain/hr.

so we need 7" gutters, and i can use a single 2x3 leader.  

personally i rarely recomend gutters to anyone in the ice zone, like we are.  i'm curious of the weight of a 79'x7" gutter filled with ice.

perhaps i'm prone to overbuilding (ie, a downspout every 20'), but better that than being called back.

[Azrael256]

I hired a PE to design my patio.  Seriously.  I don't care to re-pour it, ever.  It's only 400ft2, but welcome to North Texas...

People who don't listen are not worth doing business with.

[Hawkmoon]

so we need 7" gutters, and i can use a single 2x3 leader.  

personally i rarely recomend gutters to anyone in the ice zone, like we are.  i'm curious of the weight of a 79'x7" gutter filled with ice.

perhaps i'm prone to overbuilding (ie, a downspout every 20'), but better that than being called back.

Overbuilding is fine when you're spending your own money. It's also fine if it's a client's money, as long as the client also wants to overbuild. What's not fine (IMHO) is telling a customer it has to be this way, when "this way" is well in excess of what the code requires and the truth is that it DOESN'T have to be "this way." Like it or not, the building code is a minimum standard for a safe building. I've never met an inspector who complained about going above the minimum, but if the client only wants "safe," so be it.

Gutters and leaders do get clogged, though, and redundancy is good. I think each side of your client's building should get at least two leaders, but five on each side is massive overkill.

I haven't read through that section for a long time, but I believe gutters are a code requirement on all except single family houses.

[geronimotwo]

one of the reasons the client wants only one downspout is that it will require another 80' of french drain if we put another one at the far end of the building.

he is welcome to get a quote from anyone he choses, i am not doing this job with only 1 downspout. 

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

i just make em sign a release when they want something stupid.  it usually makes em back off.  and i take pictures   lots of pics