Author Topic: Fluorescent tube light alternatives (Read 1231 times)

mgdavis · « **on:** February 23, 2014, 09:39:11 AM »

I was doing some detail work out in the garage a couple weeks ago and realized that it wasn't all that easy to see what I was doing. Upon looking up, I realized that out of the 12 four foot bulbs and 2 eight foot bulbs I had only 4 four-footers actually operating at 100%. I don't have much familiarity with fluorescent tubes, but it looks to me like the ballasts are failing - the bulbs sort of illuminate, with a lot of flickering. I started off by replacing the 8 foot tubes, only to discover that the new bulbs also threw zero light. I bought a couple new ballasts, and plan to try my hand at rewiring the fixtures.

This leads me to my question:
Does anyone have experience with the LED substitutes for tube lights? I just found these on Amazon. I'd love to get away from the HazMat spill waiting to happen if I can find a decent alternative. It looks like those bulbs are 2-3 times as much as new fixtures with traditional fluorescent tubes. I can handle that cost difference if they, or another brand, perform well.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2014, 10:50:01 AM »

Suggestion: It's my guess that you are using all T12 fixtures? Probably lots of the standard $12 4 foot fixtures from the home improvement store?

If so, consider buying a T8 or T5 fixture for comparison. The high-output fixtures seem really nice for those bulbs too, though I haven't tried them.

mgdavis · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2014, 10:52:15 AM »

Running 40 watt bulbs already. Lots of light when they all work.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2014, 11:20:58 AM »

If your new bulbs aren't working right, usually the ballast is the next thing to replace. You might consider replacing the T12 ballast with a T8 ballast, but then you would have to change to T8 bulbs. Since you already have the T12 bulbs, that may not be the best option, unless you can use them somewhere else.

Quote from: Nick1911 on February 23, 2014, 10:50:01 AM

If so, consider buying a T8 or T5 fixture for comparison. The high-output fixtures seem really nice for those bulbs too, though I haven't tried them.

Buying a T8 fixture probably isn't necessary. Your standard 4' T12 fixture should convert to T8 by just changing bulbs and ballasts. Keep in mind that the less expensive, 700-series T8 bulbs are being legislated away, so you'll have to buy the more expensive 800-series bulbs by next year.

Is this your garage at home, or is it at work? Is there a chance anyone else might be changing light bulbs there? I ask, because I'm guessing the LED retrofit you're looking at there is the type that bypasses the ballast, and runs at 120V. One downside of those is that the next person who replaces that lamp might try sticking a fluorescent tube in there. And that would not be good.

Just something to keep in mind.

Nick1911 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2014, 11:27:24 AM »

Quote from: fistful on February 23, 2014, 11:20:58 AM

Buying a T8 fixture probably isn't necessary. Your standard 4' T12 fixture should convert to T8 by just changing bulbs and ballasts. Keep in mind that the less expensive, 700-series T8 bulbs are being legislated away, so you'll have to buy the more expensive 800-series bulbs by next year.

I didn't know florescent tubes were a target of that legislation too. Are T12's targeted as well?

Triphammer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 23, 2014, 11:29:01 AM »

At $150 to $300 per 4 foot T=8 replacement, you're ROI is years if you DIY. If you need to call in an electrician for lamp & ballasts changes it makes way more sense.

Triphammer · « **Reply #6 on:** February 23, 2014, 11:37:54 AM »

T=12 have been a target for years. Hasn't made much news as the t-8s replacing them actually use less glass & less mercury & produce the same light. There's also no hard cutoff date I'm aware of, more of a phasing out in an EOL scenario. The new High efficiency fixtures I just bought for a building extension we did were al T=5 an the light is impressive. LEDs have a higher Watt/ Lumen density but have other issues where these were going.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2014, 11:47:02 AM »

Quote from: Triphammer on February 23, 2014, 11:29:01 AM

At $150 to $300 per 4 foot T=8 replacement, you're ROI is years if you DIY. If you need to call in an electrician for lamp & ballasts changes it makes way more sense.

I'm curious about your figures, there. You should be able to DIY retrofit a T12 fixture to T8 for just the cost of the ballast and bulbs. That's $20-$30 for the ballast(s), and then I guess Home Depot price for T8s is about $4 a piece, per their website.

Triphammer · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2014, 12:04:43 PM »

I was unclear. I was answering the LED option asked in the OP.

LED replacements for a 48" T-8 lamp run $150 to $300, dependent on source.

ETA
I just checked that Amazon listing. I'm not familiar with those manufacturers. The prices I quoted were for name brands from my electrical wholesalers.

Brad Johnson · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2014, 12:12:32 PM »

Mike, low light levels and lamp no-starts sound like inevitable result of combining inexpensive fluorescent fixtures and cold temps. The only real fix is a ballast change.

As for swapping to LED, at this time fluorescent-mimic LED replacement lamps/fixtures aren't cost effective. I'd go with fistful's suggestion and retrofit your fixtures for T8.

Brad

Nick1911 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2014, 12:45:29 PM »

To answer my own question, I found Grainger had a handy page explaining legislative changes to fluorescents. http://www.grainger.com/content/lighting-legislation

Notably:

Quote

The Department of Energy announced new efficiency standards for linear and U-shaped fluorescent lamps and halogen PAR lamps. The new standard will become effective on July 14, 2012 and will implement lumens per watt (LPW) regulations for linear fluorescent and halogen PAR lamps.

The new regulations will affect the following fluorescent and halogen bulbs*:

All standard 4-foot T12 bulbs eliminated
Most 8-foot T12 bulbs eliminated
Some 4-foot T8 bulbs eliminated
All standard halogen PAR38, PAR30, PAR20 bulbs within the 40 watt – 205 watt standard eliminated
No changes for T5 bulbs

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2014, 01:03:35 PM »

I think that info is outdated. I think they backed off on the 4ft T12s.

Firethorn · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2014, 02:02:55 PM »

Quote from: fistful on February 23, 2014, 01:03:35 PM

I think that info is outdated. I think they backed off on the 4ft T12s.

Seeing as how I was shopping for tubes ~6 months ago and saw T12s very much still on the market, I'd say so.

They're only a little worse than T-8s, efficiency wise. Mandating replacing all those ballasts would cost more resources than you'd save in the difference.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2014, 03:49:10 PM »

If F40T12s are no longer legal to manufacture/import, then Philips must have an enormous stock of them.

zxcvbob · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2014, 06:20:31 PM »

I just bought a carton of F40T12's for the church. (Philips "Alto" cool white) They were about $2 each. A few years ago they were pushing $10 if you could find any. Not sure what happened.

I like F32T8's. I use some (overdriven with 1.25 bf Motorola ballasts) for grow lights, and have a 2 x F32T8 ceiling fixture in my kitchen that does a great job. And the lamps last for years without dimming.

A year ago, I bought some T5HO fixtures for my garage (to replace the 100W incandescents that work just fine but were legislated away), because they are supposed to last 24000 hours like T8's, and will start in sub-zero temps. I installed one, and the damn thing only lasted *maybe* 200 hours (I'm being generous.) Not sure if the ballast went out or the bulb, although if the bulb failed that fast it's probably the ballast's fault.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #15 on:** February 24, 2014, 09:20:49 PM »

Quote from: Firethorn on February 23, 2014, 02:02:55 PM

Seeing as how I was shopping for tubes ~6 months ago and saw T12s very much still on the market, I'd say so.

They're only a little worse than T-8s, efficiency wise. Mandating replacing all those ballasts would cost more resources than you'd save in the difference.

There are certainly some types of T12s that are no longer with us. I think the 2012 deadline may refer to (among other things) the once-common F34. From what I've been told by my lighting industry cow-orkers, the manufacturers were required to meet a certain standard of lumens per watt and/or CRI, which they've accomplished with 40-watt T12s. We have about 6000 of those just at our little warehouse, and I haven't heard anything about them being discontinued. We also sell a lot of ballasts for those lamps, as well as the single-pin 8-footers, and everything in between. Not to mention the ten-footers, etc.

Tales of the T12s demise are greatly exaggerated.

never_retreat · « **Reply #16 on:** February 24, 2014, 10:29:21 PM »

If you want some really good light and you have a decent height ceiling put in a couple of Metal halide fixtures.
I put 3 of these in my parents garage. Its like daylight in there. 30x40' space. Ceiling was about 12'.

http://www.amazon.com/RAB-BTH250GPSQ-Temporary-Halide-Closed/dp/B005V36RBW/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1393298777&sr=8-7&keywords=metal+halide+temporary+lighting

cassandra and sara's daddy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2014, 04:22:54 AM »

Yea they throw great light. 30 years ago they were the light of choice for the discerning indoor gardener

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I537 using Tapatalk

Firethorn · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2014, 05:23:04 AM »

Quote from: mgdavis on February 23, 2014, 09:39:11 AM

Does anyone have experience with the LED substitutes for tube lights? I just found these on Amazon. I'd love to get away from the HazMat spill waiting to happen if I can find a decent alternative. It looks like those bulbs are 2-3 times as much as new fixtures with traditional fluorescent tubes. I can handle that cost difference if they, or another brand, perform well.

I'd recommend changing the fixture out rather than switching to that. The fewer electronics in the circuit, the better.

Brad Johnson · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2014, 09:26:06 AM »

Home Depot still carries basic fluorescent fixtures that are inexpensive. Cheaper than switching to LED (at the moment) and use more widely available T8 lamps.

4-lamp that shows a 0 deg F min start temp.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-4-Light-Grey-Heavy-Duty-Shoplight-1284GRD-RE/202968125

Brad

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #20 on:** February 25, 2014, 07:23:00 PM »

Quote from: Brad Johnson on February 25, 2014, 09:26:06 AM

Home Depot still carries basic fluorescent fixtures that are inexpensive. Cheaper than switching to LED (at the moment) and use more widely available T8 lamps.

4-lamp that shows a 0 deg F min start temp.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-4-Light-Grey-Heavy-Duty-Shoplight-1284GRD-RE/202968125

Brad

I still think you could accomplish the same thing more cheaply and easily by just changing the ballasts and bulbs from T12 to T8. I guess it depends on how comfortable you are with DIY, your local prices, and what shape the fixtures are in.

Or if they're hanging fixtures, I guess a full-on replacement might be easier.

Brad Johnson · « **Reply #21 on:** February 25, 2014, 09:17:28 PM »

Agreed on all points.

Figure a decent ballast at $20, plus the time to strip the old fixture and wire in the new ballast, and $50 isn't too bad. Plus you get a 4 lamp fixture vs what is likely a run of the mill 2 lamp old-school shop light setup. I know all too well that if you're completely strapped for money the extra $30 can be a very big deal, but if it's economically do-able I think converting to the new fixture would probably be a better investment.

Brad

mgdavis · « **Reply #22 on:** February 25, 2014, 09:36:04 PM »

Since the LEDs are not economically feasible I'll try upgrading the existing lights. The current fixtures are mounted to the ceiling, not free hanging. I want to try replacing the ballasts to reduce unnecessary waste. I have replacement T12 ballasts, but may take them back and go with the T8s. I tried wiring in the T12 replacement and evidently got something crossed (haste makes waste). I'll try again later in the week when I have some more time. My gf and I have been combining households, and I have been getting my house set up as a rental for the last few weeks. After this weekend things should calm down a bit.

Perd Hapley · « **Reply #23 on:** February 25, 2014, 10:06:15 PM »

You don't usually gain anything by replacing the entire fixture, unless the old sockets are broken, or the old wires are burnt up, or if it happens to be faster or easier (it may not be), or if the whole thing is wired funky because of some specialty ballast (probably not the case here). Even then, replacing sockets and wires may still be easier.

The most I usually have to do is partially disassemble the old fixture, to make sure I know where all the wires are going. And that's just when I'm replacing two 2-lamp ballasts with one 4-lamp. Replacing a 2-lamp with a 2-lamp is just a matter of wire-nutting the red and blue leads off each socket to a blue wire, and the yellow wires to the ballast's red wire. Very easy and fast. Requires wire stripper, a screw driver or two, 3/8 hex driver for the ballast nut, and don't forget the wire nuts.

Oh, and then I also just found this, which is interesting. Don't know if it's any good.

http://redblue.com/lighting-solutions/

News:

Author Topic: Fluorescent tube light alternatives (Read 1231 times)