Author Topic: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.  (Read 1448 times)

GigaBuist

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Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« on: February 08, 2015, 10:32:04 PM »
I have in the past made comments on this board regarding neonictinoics (neonics from here on out) and their possible contribution to colony collapse disorder (CCD) with the European Honey Bee.  My thoughts back then were that people were wanting to do more study on them and how it interacts with CCD so maybe hold off on using them if you're concerned about the matter.

After a couple classes lead by Michigan State University's Ag Extensions unit I now feel comfortable saying that it was all hype.  There's no mystery at all. 

For those of you unaware I'm an owner in a fairly large (21 acre) greenhouse complex that's my family business.  I came back into the fold 3 years ago and one of the jobs I honed in on is pesticide application.  Mostly because I'm a geek and I like numbers and science I felt it was a good for for me. And it is.

The backstory on the issue, at least in the US, is an improper application of a neonic (Dinotefuran) was done on Linden trees in full bloom which will attract bees for miles as they're a great food source.  The applicators didn't see bees present, so they thought they were fine.  The application took place at around 5am and when the sun broke bees come out to feed and 50,000 or so died when they came into contact with it.  This is to be expected.  Everybody knows Dinotefuran is bad for bees when they're hit with it like that.  But that got the public concerned.

So then a Harvard prof did an experiment where he fed bees a 50 parts per billion solution of imidicloprid (the most common neonic) for days on end and discovered that would kill them after a few months.  Acute toxicity of imidicloprid in bees happens when they drink 150ppb solutions, that was known, and based on the eye rolling I saw from the phD in etymology giving the talk it's safe to say this study didn't really show us anything we didn't know.  Feeding bees stuff known to be very toxic to them eventually leads to death.  Duh.  It also wasn't helpful because in the wild when imidicloprid is used you only see 7ppb in the water so the test was testing something not realistic anyway.

So, it was all bunk. I'm sorry I ever mentioned it. Carry on as normal, the bees aren't fine but neonics aren't doing it. 

Now, to further the discussion...  part of what made the neonic claims legit is the EU banned their use last year, mostly, but they also excepted greenhouses because nobody seriously thinks greenhouses are doing damage with them.  Australia then does a study on the matter and finds no link to CCD and their rise of use in neonics at all.  Australia is just as reliant on them as the US is but there's no CCD there.  There's also no varoa mite there.  That's a tiny mite that attaches to bees and spreads a virus in them.  It weakens their immune system, a heavy contender in CCD.

The rise in neonics is largely in part because of the GMO crops we farm now.  With the GMO seed being significantly more expensive than traditional it makes sense to dust them with a neonic to reduce losses after planting.  There is no direct correlation to CCD and the rise of this practice at all.  Why neonics?  Because they're pretty safe to everything except target insects.  Humans are not affected by them.

Regardless of all that there has been some public pressure put on greenhouses to not use neonics.  As I understand it Home Depot is going to "punish" growers that use them by requiring them to label plants treated with a neonic as such.  It's incredibly stupid but that's what the think the public wants.  Here's why that's stupid:

Neonics are KINDA toxic to bees.  Some are worse then others.  Imdicloprid is toxic at 150ppb, as I said earlier, but acatampiprid is toxic at 425,500ppb but you find neither of these above 7ppb when actually used in the wild.

Running up the IRAC chart of insecticide groupings we have:
1A - Carbamates: toxic to bees and humans.  You can kill a person with these.
1B - Organophosphates: toxic to bees and humans.  You can kill a person with these.
2 - Organochlorides: Banned. DDT.  Stupid decision but whatever.
3 - Pyrethrim: Organic and toxic to bees.
3A  - Pyretheroids: Synethic versions of the organic version.  Toxic to bees.
4 - Nicotine: Toxic as hell to bees and also humans. 
4A - Neonics: Not harmful to humans but based on niccotine.  Kinda a problem for bees but they can shrug it off in low doses.
5 - Spinosad: Organic.  Toxic to bees.  Causes liver, heart, ovary, and more damage in humans at high exposure.
6 - Avermectins: Toxic to bees.
7,8,9.,10,11,12,13,14,15,16, 17,18,19,20,21,22,23,25,25: Toxic to bees.

BT is the only inesticide I know of not toxic to bees at all. It's organic, but actually great, if you're targeting a bug that it works on.  This is actually in the insecticide that GMO corn/soy/cotton/etc makes if you get that particular type.

Brad Johnson

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 10:52:39 PM »
Translation...

A) A "scientist" who may or may not have had ulterior motives intentionally overdosed test subjects to the point of fatality.

B) A bunch of people took this information, stripped it of context, added a few well-placed ZOMG!!s, and Liked it on Facebook.

C) Society as we know it advance one step closer to having the collective IQ of a radish.

Brad
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Boomhauer

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 10:59:08 PM »
Translation...

A) A "scientist" who may or may not have had ulterior motives intentionally overdosed test subjects to the point of fatality.

B) A bunch of people took this information, stripped it of context, added a few well-placed ZOMG!!s, and Liked it on Facebook.

C) Society as we know it advance one step closer to having the collective IQ of a radish.

Brad

Pretty much this.

Facebook morons...


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cassandra and sara's daddy

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Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 11:15:17 PM »
On that note one of my friends just shared a link that ride to compare the b 29 crashing into the Empire State Building to the planes that hit the World Trade Center. The stupid that was ongoing was terrifying

https://www.facebook.com/carl.coleman.39/posts/10205102764042547

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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

Boomhauer

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 11:17:46 PM »
On that note one of my friends just shared a link that ride to compare the b 29 crashing into the Empire State Building to the planes that hit the World Trade Center. The stupid that was ongoing was terrifying


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Wow...yeah...people are idiots.

It was a B-25 that crashed into the Empire State Building, and it did fairly minimal damage. Plus it was accidental, in that the bomber collided with it while in fog...absolutely nothing like the WTC attacks.




« Last Edit: February 08, 2015, 11:47:50 PM by Boomhauer »
Quote from: Ben
Holy hell. It's like giving a loaded gun to a chimpanzee...

Quote from: bluestarlizzard
the last thing you need is rabies. You're already angry enough as it is.

OTOH, there wouldn't be a tweeker left in Georgia...

Quote from: Balog
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE! AND THROW SOME STEAK ON THE GRILL!

French G.

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 11:56:45 PM »
I'd guess that monoculture and industrial beekeeping are primarily to blame for CCD. I've asked local beekeepers and they have no CCD issues. Not much crop agriculture around me, all pasture and a reasonably natural cycle of blooming stuff from fruit trees in the spring to thistle in late summer. And stationary beehives. If you get large areas of land(row crop) where everything flowers at once I'd imagine the bees go feast to famine. Hives that get trucked for pollination work must stress the bees too.
AKA Navy Joe   

I'm so contrarian that I didn't respond to the thread.

cassandra and sara's daddy

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2015, 09:54:00 AM »
Of all places
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-entine/post_8761_b_6323626.html


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It is much more powerful to seek Truth for one's self.  Seeing and hearing that others seem to have found it can be a motivation.  With me, I was drawn because of much error and bad judgment on my part. Confronting one's own errors and bad judgment is a very life altering situation.  Confronting the errors and bad judgment of others is usually hypocrisy.


by someone older and wiser than I

RevDisk

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2015, 10:19:33 AM »

http://www.usda.gov/documents/ReportHoneyBeeHealth.pdf

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonentine/2014/02/05/bee-deaths-reversal-as-evidence-points-away-from-neonics-as-driver-pressure-builds-to-rethink-ban/

Also good links. C&SD's link is also very good.

Short story long, shady science plus activists are trumped by long term, more thorough science.
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KD5NRH

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2015, 11:52:28 AM »
1A - Carbamates: toxic to bees and humans.  You can kill a person with these.

Yes, technically, if you hold them down in the tank long enough.  The LD50 for most of the carbamates I dealt with was so high you'd be better advised to beat someone to death with the container than try to poison them that way.  IIRC, the big benefit was also that most were equally safe for birds, which is a lot less disturbing to the customer than finding dead sparrows all over their yard a few days after spraying.

GigaBuist

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2015, 09:23:52 PM »
Yes, technically, if you hold them down in the tank long enough.  The LD50 for most of the carbamates I dealt with was so high you'd be better advised to beat someone to death with the container than try to poison them that way.  IIRC, the big benefit was also that most were equally safe for birds, which is a lot less disturbing to the customer than finding dead sparrows all over their yard a few days after spraying.

Not all of them are safe.  I had an aunt ingest some of this once:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aldicarb  She lost consciousness and had to be taken to the hospital.  Thankfully my uncle had a good clue as to what happened.

LD50 for that stuff in rats is 0.9mg/kg.   Assuming humans are similar about 70mg could kill me.  I consider that pretty toxic.


gunsmith

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2015, 12:03:37 AM »
Translation...

A) A "scientist" who may or may not have had ulterior motives intentionally overdosed test subjects to the point of fatality.

B) A bunch of people took this information, stripped it of context, added a few well-placed ZOMG!!s, and Liked it on Facebook.

C) Society as we know it advance one step closer to having the collective IQ of a radish.

Brad

LOL, I am guilty, but not because I believed it - I like all kinds of dumb stuff on facebook and say all kinds of dumbstuff too because I know a bunch of fairly attractive liberal women and I need a date at least once every few yrs
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KD5NRH

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Re: Neonictinoid pesticides and bees.
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 11:39:03 AM »
C) Society as we know it advance one step closer to having the collective IQ of a radish.

I don't see how you get from this that humanity as a whole is getting smarter.