Author Topic: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.  (Read 19065 times)

Andiron

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #50 on: April 23, 2015, 08:27:09 PM »
What makes abuse from police specially wretched it that the Law affords you no consideration or legal protection in defending yourself from it. You are obligated to sit there and take it. Even running away or otherwise avoiding his use of force opens legal grounds for him to exert even more force on you. You will always be guilty, even if he hurts his fist on your nose. So when a cop decides he wants to hurt you, there is nothing you can legally do to stop it.

To make things worse, impunity is the rule of the day. Cops will conspire with other cops to keep them out of trouble. That's a fact. If it's not caught on tape, there will be no punishment. Even if it is caught on tape, punishment is guaranteed to be less severe than it would be for any ordinary citizen. Why are police so adverse to people documenting what they do? Apparently, what they really do is not what most people think they do... and they feel they need to hide it.

We have a situation where you have a culture of we can do as we please attitude and absolute disrespect for those who are not on your "team".. or gang if you want to see it that way.

I believe people in high government like it that way, because it is always handy to have a group of people willing to do your dirty work with no fear of consequences. Post 9/11 (wait, no, longer ago) there has been a steady tendency towards militarization, and centralization of control over police forces. As seen during and after the Occupy Wall street fuss, police agencies have taken on the role of internal security agencies more than just simple law enforcement or community policing.

Give it time.

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HankB

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #51 on: April 23, 2015, 08:41:23 PM »
Agree with what appears to be a consensus that the LEO should face appropriate criminal charges - assault, battery, robbery, maybe even civil rights charges - whatever a good prosecutor (assuming they HAVE some good prosecutors) can reasonably pursue under the law. "Attempted Murder" as one poster sarcastically suggested is just being silly.

The onlooking LEOs - FOR DOING NOTHING - ought to suffer some administrative punishment; I'd suggest something like a reduction in rank or a week's suspension with no pay. (Ain't gonna happen, since they're "good cops.")
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cordex

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #52 on: April 23, 2015, 09:28:54 PM »
In general, though, gun owners don't line up to protect other gun owners who do stupid things. Cops, on the other hand, almost always protect their own, no matter how over-the-top their transgressions.
Lots of loudmouth, idiot gun owners defend and/or advocate stupid, dangerous, and outright criminal things.
It's a problem when cops defend the bad behavior of their own, for sure.  Plenty don't like being made to look bad, though.

BReilley

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2015, 01:43:11 PM »
Plenty don't like being made to look bad, though.

Yeah.  That's why they steal and smash video recording devices.

You show me a good cop who crosses the blue line to stop a beating, shakedown, or other criminal act by a bad cop, and I'll show you a good cop with no career in law enforcement.


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zxcvbob

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2015, 02:27:15 PM »
Yeah.  That's why they steal and smash video recording devices.

You show me a good cop who crosses the blue line to stop a beating, shakedown, or other criminal act by a bad cop, and I'll show you a good cop with no career in law enforcement.


Frank Serpico?
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Angel Eyes

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2015, 02:38:14 PM »
Frank Serpico?

. . . who nearly died as a result.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico

Quote
The police went to the third-floor landing. Serpico knocked on the door, keeping his hand on his revolver. The door opened a few inches, just far enough to wedge his body in. Serpico called for help, but his fellow officers ignored him.[6]

Serpico was then shot in the face with a .22 LR pistol. The bullet struck just below the eye and lodged at the top of his jaw. He fired back,[7] fell to the floor, and began to bleed profusely. His police colleagues refused to make a "10-13" dispatch to police headquarters indicating that an officer had been shot. An elderly man who lived in the next apartment called the emergency services and reported that a man had been shot. The stranger stayed with Serpico.[6] A police car arrived. Unaware that Serpico was one of them, the officers took him to Greenpoint Hospital

Emphasis added.

Nice going, NYPD.

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zxcvbob

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2015, 03:26:47 PM »
That's why I picked him for an example.
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cordex

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2015, 04:28:20 PM »
You show me a good cop who crosses the blue line to stop a beating, shakedown, or other criminal act by a bad cop, and I'll show you a good cop with no career in law enforcement.
http://bit.ly/1z1XSMZ

brimic

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2015, 04:54:14 PM »
http://bit.ly/1z1XSMZ

Yep. Local to me, there have been a few cops arrested over the last few years...
6 or so of them are doing long prison sentences after nearly beating a man to death at a party.
A few more are doing time for getting all rapey and sticking their fingers and other objects into suspect's butts on traffic stops.
What did these all have in common? The cops weren't arrested by other cops witnessing the acts, the arrests and trials only happened after victims/witnesses made reports.

Here is a scenario to chew on....
What if during a traffic stop, a cop pulls your S.O./spouse out of the vehicle and starts savagely beating him/her unprovoked?
If you were to intervene with lethal force, do you expect the cop's partner will back you or shoot you and your spouse down like dogs in the street?

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Hawkmoon

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2015, 08:41:19 PM »
Here is a scenario to chew on....
What if during a traffic stop, a cop pulls your S.O./spouse out of the vehicle and starts savagely beating him/her unprovoked?
If you were to intervene with lethal force, do you expect the cop's partner will back you or shoot you and your spouse down like dogs in the street?

That was a rhetorical question, I assume ...
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brimic

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2015, 10:18:05 AM »
That was a rhetorical question, I assume ...
Winner, chicken dinner...
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Firethorn

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #62 on: April 25, 2015, 07:58:50 PM »
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/02/12/officer-who-issued-120-mph-ticket-suing-police-harassment/

"with a fellow FHP Trooper, Andrew Cobb, claiming he accessed the information "out of concern for a fellow trooper" and as "a matter of public safety," according to his attorney. "

Really?  If you have a concern for your 'fellow trooper', express it to your supervisor.  If that's the best excuse you can come up with, you deserve the fine to come out of your own pocket, not the department's.

Because when she's under a campaign of harassment, getting her address and phone number from the DMV database seems to be the 'easy' way. 

MechAg94

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #63 on: April 25, 2015, 09:24:43 PM »
I was looking for updates on the Watts lawsuit.  
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2013-06-28/news/fl-watts-lauderhill-settlement-20130628_1_fhp-trooper-trooper-donna-jane-watts-law-enforcement

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2013/11/26/fhp-trooper-donna-watts-last-stand/
This link has a list of settlements by police departments.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/18/a-plague-of-professional-courtesy/
this mentions some other cases.  

The crap I don't like is all of them mentioning the police union wanting to dismiss the suit since the information was not sold. 
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Hawkmoon

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #64 on: April 25, 2015, 10:50:59 PM »
From Mech's second link:

Quote
Watts’ lawsuit and settlements have reverberated all the way to Washington, where the National Association of Police Organizations is pushing for a change in federal law that would essentially allow officers to access state motor vehicle records even when there is no legitimate law enforcement purpose.

And the police wonder why the public doesn't like them or trust them. Dozens of officers get caught breaking the law by unlawfully accessing databases that are supposed to be accessed only for official purposes -- so the response of the police officers' union is to decriminalize it -- thereby making it easier for unscrupulous police officers to prey on citizens with impunity.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2015, 04:18:22 PM by Hawkmoon »
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BReilley

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #65 on: April 27, 2015, 01:41:00 AM »
http://www.autoblog.com/2014/02/12/officer-who-issued-120-mph-ticket-suing-police-harassment/

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2014/02/18/a-plague-of-professional-courtesy/

I had her in mind, as well as Regina Tasca.
cordex, I did not say "cops never get fired".  What I said was that a cop who directly intervenes to stop an unprovoked beating(Tasca) or who calls another on a the-law-doesn't-apply-to-me power trip(Watts) will be either fired or made so uncomfortable as to leave quitting the only option.

Agents of the state find their way into trouble all the time.  They commit criminal acts(victimless and otherwise) at least as often as we "subjects".  They, however, have qualified immunity to invoke.  If that doesn't provide a decisive outcome in the agent's favor, there's a command structure to hide behind and a union to provide legal and financial support and to spin PR.  If the charge does get through a grand jury, you can always count on a jury to stand by their heroes in blue.  If the jury convicts, expect a wink-nod minimal or suspended sentence from a sympathetic brother judge who wants to keep in good graces with the cops.

At this point, if you believe that government folks are held to a standard anything like the one applied to the rest of us, you're lying to yourself.
I've got two kids and I have to teach them not to talk to police unless there's no other choice, and never to trust a badge.  I've been lied to, lied about, threatened and extorted by police.  How about you?
What do you tell your kids?

cordex

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #66 on: April 27, 2015, 11:48:50 AM »
What I said was that a cop who directly intervenes to stop an unprovoked beating(Tasca) or who calls another on a the-law-doesn't-apply-to-me power trip(Watts) will be either fired or made so uncomfortable as to leave quitting the only option.
I don't deny that such things happen.  They do, and they are newsworthy when they occur. 

While not a perfect analogy, there are also confirmed reports of military units in Afghanistan and Iraq who murdered innocent people and used intimidation on unit members to try to prevent or delay the atrocities coming to light.  Given the nature of the region and crimes I'd wager there were a lot more such incidents that have not yet to light.  I'd wager there are a huge number of less horrific cases where the perpetrator's squadmates didn't immediately intercede on behalf of the victim for a variety of reasons.  Doesn't make everyone in uniform a murdering babykiller or complicit in those crimes.

Agents of the state find their way into trouble all the time.  They commit criminal acts(victimless and otherwise) at least as often as we "subjects".  They, however, have qualified immunity to invoke.  If that doesn't provide a decisive outcome in the agent's favor, there's a command structure to hide behind and a union to provide legal and financial support and to spin PR.  If the charge does get through a grand jury, you can always count on a jury to stand by their heroes in blue.  If the jury convicts, expect a wink-nod minimal or suspended sentence from a sympathetic brother judge who wants to keep in good graces with the cops.
Some truth there, for sure.  Not sure how common or uncommon the "sympathetic brother judge" element is, nor the public perception of "heroes in blue" these days.  Additionally, you might be surprised at how many scumbags without badges have serious crimes dismissed, plead down or have sentences suspended/drastically reduced.  Hardly a benefit reserved for cops.

I've got two kids and I have to teach them not to talk to police unless there's no other choice, and never to trust a badge.  I've been lied to, lied about, threatened and extorted by police.  How about you?
What do you tell your kids?
Given your claimed history with police, I don't fault you for having that viewpoint.  My kids are young enough that I would still have them seek out police if they were in need, but they will learn to refuse consent to searches, avoid unnecessary interactions with police and so forth.  They will also learn similar caution when dealing with other people who could harm or wrong them.  They will count their change when the cashier hands it to them, get a second opinion if the mechanic tells them they need more repairs than seem justified and as best I can train them will watch for threatening behavior across the board.  I will not, however, try to convince them that everyone who runs a cash register is a thief, or every mechanic is a liar, or every person wants to hurt them, or every cop is crooked.  Neither extreme is beneficial.

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #67 on: April 27, 2015, 12:39:40 PM »
I've got two kids and I have to teach them not to talk to police unless there's no other choice, and never to trust a badge.  I've been lied to, lied about, threatened and extorted by police.  How about you?
What do you tell your kids?

At their current ages, that they can generally turn to a uniformed LEO for assistance.  As they get older--and certainly before they get DLs--I will update their information and be sure to train them in the techniques to both minimize LEO interaction and what to do do minimize any deleterious outcomes should they have to interact with LEOs.

The younger the child, the less able to handle subtle distinctions.  Somewhere between childhood and adulthood, most manage to wrap their heads around more complex realities.
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Scout26

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #68 on: April 27, 2015, 03:17:11 PM »
At their current ages, that they can generally turn to a uniformed LEO for assistance.  As they get older--and certainly before they get DLs--I will update their information and be sure to train them in the techniques to both minimize LEO interaction and what to do do minimize any deleterious outcomes should they have to interact with LEOs.

The younger the child, the less able to handle subtle distinctions.  Somewhere between childhood and adulthood, most manage to wrap their heads around more complex realities.

Exactly.  When my son was three he couldn't leave our yard on his own.  When he was eight he could ride his bike up and down the block to include the school and park.  At ten, that expanded to the neighborhood, with the streets named as boundaries (Roosevelt to Butterfield to Naperville to Wiesbrook) .  At thirteen, the city limits became his boundaries.  And will probably stay there (perhaps expanded to the ball fields in the neighboring towns), until he gets his license.

He understands about the declining to consent to a search, to request a lawyer, and to STFU. 
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MechAg94

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2015, 04:58:36 PM »
Some truth there, for sure.  Not sure how common or uncommon the "sympathetic brother judge" element is, nor the public perception of "heroes in blue" these days.  Additionally, you might be surprised at how many scumbags without badges have serious crimes dismissed, plead down or have sentences suspended/drastically reduced.  Hardly a benefit reserved for cops.
I don't know how common that stuff is either, but it should be stomped on hard when it happens really anywhere in govt.  Not only the original offender, but all the people who helped them. 

IMO, anything that undermines the system should be addressed harshly.  In reality, the bureaucratic mindset says anything that undermines the system should be pushed under the rug, handled internally, or made secret. 
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cordex

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2015, 08:13:28 PM »
I don't know how common that stuff is either, but it should be stomped on hard when it happens really anywhere in govt.  Not only the original offender, but all the people who helped them. 

IMO, anything that undermines the system should be addressed harshly.  In reality, the bureaucratic mindset says anything that undermines the system should be pushed under the rug, handled internally, or made secret. 
I strongly agree.

Also, good plan roo_ster.

Balog

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2015, 10:06:28 PM »
Ask the lawyers that I guess.  I just don't know if what I saw warrants criminal charges versus just compensation and punishment.  If you want to imagine what you could get away with if your intent was to totally screw over the officer, then I guess go for attempted murder also since he was armed.   =D

If this happened between two private citizens, I have doubts the cops would even arrest the guy unless there was more to it.  

1. Cops are private citizens.
2. Walk up to a cop, snatch something from his hands, and smash it on the ground. See if the local DA considers it to warrant criminal charges.
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Firethorn

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Re: Southgate cop assaults woman, destroys phone.
« Reply #72 on: April 27, 2015, 11:45:28 PM »
1. Cops are private citizens.
2. Walk up to a cop, snatch something from his hands, and smash it on the ground. See if the local DA considers it to warrant criminal charges.

3.  Be sure to cite the Cop's case as case law.