Effects of LE & .mil pistol training

[Perd Hapley]

I thought some of you might find this interesting.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/04/robert-farago/study-why-police-firearms-training-sucks/

I'm not sure I agree with the blog's headline for this topic. They seem to focus on the slight difference between novice and "expert" at close range, when my take-away is that hitting man-sized targets at 3-15 feet does not require training.

[MechAg94]

Calling police trainees who have completed academy firearms training "experts" is probably stretching it a lot.  That is backed up by their data showing their "intermediates" did pretty much the same as their "experts".  A little bit of training does not make one an expert marksman.

At short distances, when the scoring is based solely on "hits", there is little difference between aiming and point shooting.  So novices will of course do just fine compared to "experts".  Their novices did worse at longer ranges which I would expect.  If you were judging accuracy, I am sure you could see a big difference in many cases, but not by scoring hits only.  (with their test groups, maybe not)

I would have thought police training would include more moving and shooting type training versus just stance and technique.  If guess there is only so much you can do in one round of classes when many or some might be complete beginners.  

[wmenorr67]

I have trained with pistols both in the military and as part of my training to become a correctional officer.  The training as a correctional officer was I believed all of 40 hours total which included some with a shotgun.  We did some moving around to find cover but no shooting while moving.  Also we trained to aim, shoot, scan, repeat.  There were more than one that went through that training I would have refused to go along with if needed on a transport.

The military training I've received runs that gambit of training for basic qualification all the way to transition from pistol to rifle or vise versa, shooting while moving and "controlled" pairs, most call it double tap.

[Ben]

I have trained with pistols both in the military and as part of my training to become a correctional officer.  The training as a correctional officer was I believed all of 40 hours total which included some with a shotgun.  We did some moving around to find cover but no shooting while moving.  Also we trained to aim, shoot, scan, repeat.  There were more than one that went through that training I would have refused to go along with if needed on a transport.

The military training I've received runs that gambit of training for basic qualification all the way to transition from pistol to rifle or vise versa, shooting while moving and "controlled" pairs, most call it double tap.

When I took my defensive pistol courses, one of the instructors was a former Sheriff's SRT guy, and he used to always tell us how, "going through these courses will teach you better skills than most cops have." Of course I figured he said all that to pump up the curriculum as well as the attendees, but I have seen the local cops at their range days, which they do at my gun club.

While I could not tell how any of them did, the fact that they were basically target shooting did not escape me (and this occurred on the part of the range set aside for members to practice CCW techniques). I was already learning to move and shoot in level 1 pistol. I would guess the cops that do better were firearms enthusiasts, or inclined to be, before they went to the academy, and would thus be more motivated to do better and train more. I think a lot of cops look at their gun no differently than the pen they use to write tickets.

[Scout26]

When I took my defensive pistol courses, one of the instructors was a former Sheriff's SRT guy, and he used to always tell us how, "going through these courses will teach you better skills than most cops have." Of course I figured he said all that to pump up the curriculum as well as the attendees, but I have seen the local cops at their range days, which they do at my gun club.

While I could not tell how any of them did, the fact that they were basically target shooting did not escape me (and this occurred on the part of the range set aside for members to practice CCW techniques). I was already learning to move and shoot in level 1 pistol. I would guess the cops that do better were firearms enthusiasts, or inclined to be, before they went to the academy, and would thus be more motivated to do better and train more. I think a lot of cops look at their gun no differently than the pen they use to write tickets.

This.

The vast majority of police agencies (at least here in Illinois) do not have the facilities, nor the in-house expertise to do more than "Here's your 40 rounds for your annual qualification, get at least X on target, and FIRE."  When I was president of ASC, I got to see many agencies come out and "train".  90% did the "40 rounds" qual.  The rest were the larger, better funded and did do some shoot, move, and communicate to varying degrees, as they had more in-house expertise (or at least the funding) to go train their trainers.

And for a majority of officers the pistol is nothing more then a piece of kit that gets lugged around on the belt, like the radio, handcuffs and nightstick.  Range Days were either a PITA or a chance to grab some easy OT for most of them.

[Jamisjockey]

Friend of mine was a swat officer for a while.  He's been in two shootings, and registered all hits in both.  Why? Because he shoots and trains.
Most cops shoot the minimum at static ranges and don't receive any additional training over the years. We had some nice long chats in Cabo over candle light and a bottle of rum on the subject when the power was out and Odiele was ripping the house apart we were in 

[Hawkmoon]

While I could not tell how any of them did, the fact that they were basically target shooting did not escape me (and this occurred on the part of the range set aside for members to practice CCW techniques). I was already learning to move and shoot in level 1 pistol. I would guess the cops that do better were firearms enthusiasts, or inclined to be, before they went to the academy, and would thus be more motivated to do better and train more. I think a lot of cops look at their gun no differently than the pen they use to write tickets.

One of the proprietors of a small, local gun shop is a retired police officer. He doesn't hide that he has no use for handguns. He's a shotgun aficionado. He said he only fired his duty weapon for semi-annual qualification, and when the department moved from revolvers to semi-autos he retired.

On the flip side, the range where I shoot has informal "combat" shoots (mini-IDPA type courses) on Tursday nights. There was a Coast Guard guy whose duty was to board ships entering U.S. waters to serach for contraband. He used to trek 40 or 50 miles from his station to be able to run-n-gun with us.

[MechAg94]

Friend of mine was a swat officer for a while.  He's been in two shootings, and registered all hits in both.  Why? Because he shoots and trains.
Most cops shoot the minimum at static ranges and don't receive any additional training over the years. We had some nice long chats in Cabo over candle light and a bottle of rum on the subject when the power was out and Odiele was ripping the house apart we were in 

Thanks for the....um....input.

 

[Ben]

On the flip side, the range where I shoot has informal "combat" shoots (mini-IDPA type courses) on Tursday nights. There was a Coast Guard guy whose duty was to board ships entering U.S. waters to serach for contraband. He used to trek 40 or 50 miles from his station to be able to run-n-gun with us.

Coasties seem to get it from what I have seen. The guys at the MSD next to my old office often did CQB and blue gun practice with instructors in the alley between our offices. Of course, it's kinda hard NOT to shoot and move when you're standing on a boat. 

[dm1333]

Coasties seem to get it from what I have seen. The guys at the MSD next to my old office often did CQB and blue gun practice with instructors in the alley between our offices. Of course, it's kinda hard NOT to shoot and move when you're standing on a boat. 

I had an OIC once who was a former Marine who was always trying to teach us to grapple and how to disarm somebody.  If you pointed an M9 at him he could strip that thing apart before most of us could react.  I always wondered what the locals thought when he was out tossing Coasties around on our back lawn. 

"Boat" is sort of vague, ever notice bikes on the decks of large freighters and tankers?  It's quicker than walking.

[Ben]

"Boat" is sort of vague, ever notice bikes on the decks of large freighters and tankers?  It's quicker than walking.

Yeah, I shoulda said RHIB. :)

[dm1333]

When I was stationed in CA I never saw city cops shooting at the gravel pit but there were Sheriff's Deputies and Game Wardens there on a pretty regular basis.  A bunch of deputies were also into IDPA or ISPC shooting (I don't remember which), I think a lot of it was motivated by the fact that the next closest deputy might be over a half hour away.

[RoadKingLarry]

I consider myself a mediocre to fair pistol shot at best. When I was shooting IDPA locally there were always quite a few LEO types competing, a typical match would have as many as 50-60 competitors. While my times were usually pretty low my accuracy scores were consistently in the top 5 to 10 shooters.
That tells me that on average cops don't train.

 

[HankB]

Some years back, I was a member of a pistol club that had access to a major midwestern city's police department range. We ran a "mini combat league" that used nearly the same course of fire the police used for qualification, but with two differences:  1. ALL the times were cut in half   2. We included some "strong hand only" and "weak hand only" shooting on some of the stages.

I - and several others - had average scores in the high 90+% range. And yet many officers struggled to qualify.

Years later, when I was shooting IDPA regularly, we had a number of officers visit and shoot for score - and when they showed up in duty gear, as a courtesy, we didn't make them draw from concealment.

With a few exceptions (i.e., the occasional police trainer or instructor) almost all would have been classified in the "Novice" category.

We all know SOME LEOs are really good - but for every Jim Cirillo, there are probably a couple of hundred Barney Fifes.

[wmenorr67]

I consider myself a mediocre to fair pistol shot at best. When I was shooting IDPA locally there were always quite a few LEO types competing, a typical match would have as many as 50-60 competitors. While my times were usually pretty low my accuracy scores were consistently in the top 5 to 10 shooters.
That tells me that on average cops don't train.

 

I would say the reason for that in your area is because of your area.  Like dm stated, some of the LEO's in your area could be the only one around for miles/hours.  Look at the case of the game warden just the other day.

[RoadKingLarry]

The matches I shot at were at Oil Capital Gun Club and USSA.

[MechAg94]

I would say the reason for that in your area is because of your area.  Like dm stated, some of the LEO's in your area could be the only one around for miles/hours.  Look at the case of the game warden just the other day.

Game wardens are not exactly the best example.  They often work alone or at least there are often only a few in a county or one covering multiple counties.