unique less-lethal device

[zahc]

http://www.gizmag.com/alternative-police-handguns-less-lethal/39335/

I have not seen this particular concept before.

[Fly320s]

We discussed it a few months ago, IIRC.

It is a bad idea.

[Hawkmoon]

At the front of the bright orange carrier is a hollow sphere made of a proprietary alloy that catches the bullet and firmly embeds it as it leaves the barrel. The ball and bullet fuse, slowing the round by 80 percent. At this speed, the ball-encased round is less likely to penetrate flesh, but it will transfer enough kinetic energy across a wide surface to knock a suspect down with less chance of a lethal outcome. Essentially, it's like a small, powerful bean-bag round, which Alternative Ballistics claims is as accurate as a standard pistol round.

Why do I think that this makes less than zero sense? I haven't run the numbers, but I'm quite certain that a standard (pr even +P) 9mm round striking someone wearing body armor is NOT going to knock the person down. If we REDUCE the velocity by 80 percent, it's barely going to sting, even to a person who isn't wearing body armor.

In round numbers, let's say a 9mm round travels at 1200 fps. Reduce that by 80 percent and we get 240 fps. That's slower than most BB guns, by a considerable margin.

Don't ... think ... so.

[brimic]

OMG I forgot about that one already. Yep, horribly bad idea.

[brimic]

Why do I think that this makes less than zero sense? I haven't run the numbers, but I'm quite certain that a standard (pr even +P) 9mm round striking someone wearing body armor is NOT going to knock the person down. If we REDUCE the velocity by 80 percent, it's barely going to sting, even to a person who isn't wearing body armor.

In round numbers, let's say a 9mm round travels at 1200 fps. Reduce that by 80 percent and we get 240 fps. That's slower than most BB guns, by a considerable margin.

Don't ... think ... so.

Pretty much the only way any handgun is going to knock anyone over is if its large and made completely of steel and a 300lb powerlifter uses it as a club.

[RocketMan]

Why do I think that this makes less than zero sense? I haven't run the numbers, but I'm quite certain that a standard (pr even +P) 9mm round striking someone wearing body armor is NOT going to knock the person down. If we REDUCE the velocity by 80 percent, it's barely going to sting, even to a person who isn't wearing body armor.

In round numbers, let's say a 9mm round travels at 1200 fps. Reduce that by 80 percent and we get 240 fps. That's slower than most BB guns, by a considerable margin.

Don't ... think ... so.

It makes perfect sense.  Why don't you understand?  Didn't you get all your knowledge of firearms and physics from watching crappy TV shows and movies like the rest of us?

[dogmush]

Why do I think that this makes less than zero sense? I haven't run the numbers, but I'm quite certain that a standard (pr even +P) 9mm round striking someone wearing body armor is NOT going to knock the person down. If we REDUCE the velocity by 80 percent, it's barely going to sting, even to a person who isn't wearing body armor.

In round numbers, let's say a 9mm round travels at 1200 fps. Reduce that by 80 percent and we get 240 fps. That's slower than most BB guns, by a considerable margin.

Don't ... think ... so.

The projectile is slower but significantly higher in mass.  I'm not saying it WILL knock someone down, but it will transfer quite a bit of energy to the person.  More energy, in fact, than some 9mm hits. (9mm often goes through a person, and the energy retained by that projectile isn't imparted to the target.)

Add to that the "wind got knocked out of" effect of being hit in the chest with a 1.5" sphere of meta land it could very will make many people sit down where a 9mm hole through them wouldn't. (at least right away)

Not defending this as a great idea, but the concept is the same as the 12ga beanbag rounds.  I am entertained that the video's of use all show the LEO screaming "LESS LETHAL" several times in what, I assume, is an attempt to forestall the sympathetic fusillade that often accompanies an officer shooting something.

[BlueStarLizzard]

I must have missed it the first time round.

I'm more struck by the fact that the officer needs to stop and attach this thing. The article lauds the fact that it can be done quickly and one handed, but fails to understand that a weapon needs to be as close to ready as humanly possible in most situations. I can't see how this device would alter the types of officer involved shooting deaths that have flooded the news in recent years, but I can see how officers issued this device would be screwed over by media outlets and protesters for not using it under those circumstances.
Even if it does work as intended, I don't see it as a viable weapon under most conditions.

[dogmush]

Honestly, I see it as Taser: version 2.  Everyone will think it's the cat's meow for a while, a few will get misused and some folks hurt, and then the goalposts will be moved and people will be mad that cops are "alternative-ing" people.*  Most of the perpetually upset people don't want to see any force used against them and their's at all.

*if it gets used a lot.  The only LEA I've heard of actually training with it and giving it a go is Ferguson, MO.  Should be interesting when the first "teenager" takes one of these to the face. 

[just Warren]

One of our prettier members had a thread on this already here.

[cassandra and sara's daddy]

And someone will soon catch one in the temple, accidentally or on purpose, and croak. Then the usual suspects will shriek and make it racist


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Fly320s]

Honestly, I see it as Taser: version 2.  Everyone will think it's the cat's meow for a while, a few will get misused and some folks hurt, and then the goalposts will be moved and people will be mad that cops are "alternative-ing" people.*  Most of the perpetually upset people don't want to see any force used against them and their's at all.

*if it gets used a lot.  The only LEA I've heard of actually training with it and giving it a go is Ferguson, MO.  Should be interesting when the first "teenager" takes one of these to the face. 

No, it is abso-freaking-lutely a bad idea.  A real, live firearm should never be used as a less-lethal device or as a less-lethal launch platform.  A dedicated less-lethal launch platform is the best way to employ less-lethal devices, which is how the shotgun beanbag rounds are launched.

Using a live weapon brings live ammo into the fight, even though less-lethal is the plan.  And what happens if The Alternative some how damages or disables the live firearm? 

[dogmush]

Which is why my first post on the subject said I wasn't defending it as a great idea.

The post you quoted was my prediction of how public perception will go IF this gets widely adopted.  i.e. Like the Taser, which everyone loved at first, until folks proved that "Less" lethal wasn't "Not" lethal. Now the usual suspects get almost as up in arms when they get Tased as when they get shot.

Comparing it to the 12ga bag was in a post about it's physical effects.  i.e. it works in much the same way as other, in common use, less lethal projectiles.

In neither post did I advocate it's adoption or use.

[Fly320s]

Understood now.

I took "Taser 2" to mean a good thing since Tasers are good less-lethal devices, despite what the criminal crowd says.

[birdman]

A dedicated less-lethal launch platform is the best way to employ less-lethal devices, which is how the shotgun beanbag rounds are launched.

Using a live weapon brings live ammo into the fight, even though less-lethal is the plan.  And what happens if The Alternative some how damages or disables the live firearm? 

Also why most departments prefer paint-ball style pepper ball launchers rather than 12ga, and why various mfg produce grenade launchers in both 40 (DD and has HE available) and 37 (non-DD usually, doesn't have "lethal" available, but does have less than lethal (but still DD) rounds available).
Easy then to make the LnL stuff VERY distinctive (eg paint it orange, it's a fundamentally different weapon, etc.)

[MechAg94]

What if the device fails and an officer ends up shooting a person when they intended to just hit them with a less-than-lethal projectile?  What happens when an officer thought it was attached, but forgot it or it fell off and he shoots someone? 

I guess everyone would love to have a true stun weapon, but I get the feeling all these less than lethal "options" are just making police officers jobs more complicated and giving lawyers more lawsuit fodder. 

[KD5NRH]

The projectile is slower but significantly higher in mass.

Energy is still the same, less whatever is used up in detaching the ball from the carrier.  Fire an ultralight alloy framed pistol in .357 and see if the equal and opposite reaction knocks you down.

Frankly, the only real advantage I see of this is also the biggest drawback I see; the next trigger pull gets a normal, deadly bullet.  Big problem if you train to double tap and then do it from habit when you only intended to fire less-lethal.  Bit different from a Taser XREP up front in a pump 12ga, since you do have to do something else in between shots with the pump gun.

[seeker_two]

One of our prettier members had a thread on this already here.

Mike Irwin?.....