Gun owners are their own worst enemies

[Perd Hapley]

A victory is a victory. If the terms aren't 100% how you'd like, it's still a damned victory.

Get the victory and work on expanding it from there. The folks who want it all in one shot will never get anything.

I can't tell which side you're on. You're saying national reciprocity is wanting it all in one shot?

[Hawkmoon]

I think what he's saying is what my position is: What we really want is national "constitutional" carry (no permit required). That's not an easy sell, so start with national reciprocity (full faith and credit), and then tackle constitutional carry as the next step.

[MikeB]

Maybe the disconnect here is that for many of us our license/permit is pretty much already constitutional carry. For example in PA, other than laying out $20 and having to spend an hour every five years getting a quick check and photo at the Sgeriffs office there is really no difference than straight constitutional carry states. Also there is almost no where we can't carry legally.

Now I know many other states have training requirements, costs that can be $100+, lists of places they can't carry etc. Maybe for people in these places they don't have the same frame of reference on just saying let's have full faith and credit(mandatory reciprocity) vs. the belief that the federal government would actually get involved in the permitting process. In other words they are already used to larger government involvement in th whole carry thing and therefore the natural reaction is against what they assume will be more.

[Hawkmoon]

Maybe the disconnect here is that for many of us our license/permit is pretty much already constitutional carry. For example in PA, other than laying out $20 and having to spend an hour every five years getting a quick check and photo at the Sgeriffs office there is really no difference than straight constitutional carry states. Also there is almost no where we can't carry legally.

"Pretty much" constitutional carry within your home state is a far cry from constitutional carry (or reciprocal carry) in all the states. And your constitutional carry doesn't help you in Philadelphia. Look at permitting requirements for other states and you'll find that PA is far less restrictive than most. And how many states now honor your PA license? Looks like 31, according to www.handgunlaw.us . That's a lot better than most states but, even so, you can only drive out of PA heading west. North, east, or south you're surrounded by states that don't honor your license. My home state permit is only good in about 20 states, and I can't drive across my state borders in any direction with a firearm (unless it's unloaded and I'm heading for another state where I'm legal, under the FOPA).

The point of national reciprocity is to eliminate such issues. For example, I haven't visited Acadia National Park in many years. Maine recently went to unlicensed open carry, but that doesn't apply in state parks or in Acadia. For me to carry in Acadia, I would need to get a Maine permit. It shouldn't be that way. That's the point.

[MikeB]

"Pretty much" constitutional carry within your home state is a far cry from constitutional carry (or reciprocal carry) in all the states. And your constitutional carry doesn't help you in Philadelphia. Look at permitting requirements for other states and you'll find that PA is far less restrictive than most. And how many states now honor your PA license? Looks like 31, according to www.handgunlaw.us . That's a lot better than most states but, even so, you can only drive out of PA heading west. North, east, or south you're surrounded by states that don't honor your license. My home state permit is only good in about 20 states, and I can't drive across my state borders in any direction with a firearm (unless it's unloaded and I'm heading for another state where I'm legal, under the FOPA).

The point of national reciprocity is to eliminate such issues. For example, I haven't visited Acadia National Park in many years. Maine recently went to unlicensed open carry, but that doesn't apply in state parks or in Acadia. For me to carry in Acadia, I would need to get a Maine permit. It shouldn't be that way. That's the point.

I don't think you understood me. Also you are wrong about Philadelphia, but that's a different discussion.

My point was that it seems those of us who more or less already have constitutional carry are just saying pass the law requiring recognition. Those that live in states with more complex requirements seem to fear that the proposed federal law will also have more complex requirements. Of course if you just read the legislative that has been proposed, it is just the simple requiring all states to recognize all permits situation not a new federal permit scheme.

[grampster]

If memory serves, under a section of FOPA, if a person lawfully stored a firearm in the state he left, and accidently and without knowing or intent he wound up in a state with draconian laws, he could not be arrested and prosecuted.  New York and Massachusetts have both ignored that law I believe. 
If a full faith and credit adoption with respect to concealed carry nationwide was adopted, they'd have to add some severe penalties to officials who ignored it.

[Hawkmoon]

Of course if you just read the legislative that has been proposed, it is just the simple requiring all states to recognize all permits situation not a new federal permit scheme.

Isn't that exactly what I said?

[Ben]

If memory serves, under a section of FOPA, if a person lawfully stored a firearm in the state he left, and accidently and without knowing or intent he wound up in a state with draconian laws, he could not be arrested and prosecuted.  New York and Massachusetts have both ignored that law I believe. 
If a full faith and credit adoption with respect to concealed carry nationwide was adopted, they'd have to add some severe penalties to officials who ignored it.

Add NJ to that list.  I believe we had a topic here a while back about a woman who was about to get the book thrown at her until Chris Christie intervened. Had her case not gone viral, she'd likely be sitting in a NJ pokey as we speak.

[grampster]

I think there is a guy who remains threatened in NY.  He flew out of his state with the duly legally TSA checked firearms.  While enroute to his destination, the plane was diverted to NY.  He had no intent or idea he'd be in NY.  Had to stay overnight so he had to get his checked luggage.  When rechecking in the following day to leave he was arrested for having firearms.

[T.O.M.]

Been playing this through in my mind...

Say legislation is introduced, mandating that full faith and credit be applied to CCW permits.  Trump signs it into law.  I'm betting that the AGs in California and/pr New York and/or Massachusetts would file a suit in federal court seeking a declaratory judgment that such legislation is unconstitutional because (1) no authority under the Constitution, (2) state's rights, and (3) any other thing that they can get some legal intern to dredge up.  Odds are good in one of those states, they'll get an anti-gun judge who will find such a law unconstitutional, especially in New York or California.  This gets appealed, and chased up to SCOTUS.  Depending on how fast it happens, it may still be a 4-4 vote in SCOTUS, which would mean that the lower court findings stand, and there would then be legal precedent that full faith and credit does not apply to CCW permits.  Not a good outcome.

Other option.  Law passes, and Johnny Gunner goes to NYC packing his Glock 19.  NYPD arrests him for CCW, illegal possession of a firearm, and probably violation of the New York SAFE act which prohibits mags with more than 10 rounds.  NYC judge (probably anti-gun) finds the federal law unconstitutional and Johnny gets convicted and sentenced to prison.  Johnny then chases the case through the appellate process, which would likely take a year or two in New York.  Meanwhile, maybe Trump gets an appointment to SCOTUS, and maybe Johnny gets his conviction reversed and remanded, which means it goes all the way back to the trial court.  Local judge dismisses the CCW and possession charges, but maintains the SAFE act conviction and keeps Johnny in prison.  Better outcome for all of us, but sucks to be Johnny.

As I've been thinking this through, especially with different states having mag capacity limits, ammunition restrictions (aren't hollowpoints still illegal in New Jersey?), and such, should full faith and credit eventually get passed, I think I'll go find a 3" Smith Model 13/65 and make that my travel CCW gun, loaded with LSWC ammunition.  No worries about magazine limits, or silly ammunition restrictions, or some AG like in Massachusetts who interprets local assault weapons bans to essentially include any semi-auto firearms capable of using a detachable magazine which might possibly hold more than 10 rounds.

[wmenorr67]

My answer to all of this is if CA, NY, NJ and others don't want to play and recognize CCW then other states need to give them a big FU on the DL's.  Especially those that are passed out to those in this country illegally. 

[Perd Hapley]

My answer to all of this is if CA, NY, NJ and others don't want to play and recognize CCW then other states need to give them a big FU on the DL's.  Especially those that are passed out to those in this country illegally. 

Now that would be funny. I hope it does not happen, as so many gun-rights supporters would die laughing. How many of us have already perished, just from laughing at the Trump-shocked college cretins? This has got to stop.

[Hawkmoon]

Add NJ to that list.  I believe we had a topic here a while back about a woman who was about to get the book thrown at her until Chris Christie intervened. Had her case not gone viral, she'd likely be sitting in a NJ pokey as we speak.

She wasn't covered by the FOPA, because she wasn't transiting through New Jersey from one state where she was legal to another state where she was legal. She was from PA, she had a PA carry permit, but she was on her way to visit someone in NJ. Unfortunately for her, she had no idea that her PA license to carry firearms wasn't recognized outside of PA.

[Hawkmoon]

I think there is a guy who remains threatened in NY.  He flew out of his state with the duly legally TSA checked firearms.  While enroute to his destination, the plane was diverted to NY.  He had no intent or idea he'd be in NY.  Had to stay overnight so he had to get his checked luggage.  When rechecking in the following day to leave he was arrested for having firearms.

Greg Revell. New Jersey, not New York (Newark International).

The case has been settled, Ultimately, the state dropped the charges rather than face losing in court. But not before he had spent a weekend in jail and spent several thousand dollars in legal fees.